Originally posted by beats and beeps
As a gay black kid I've experienced my fair share of hatred and intolerance from christians (and others of course!) I don't really think my original post used any stereotypes, hatred or intolerance.
Beleive it or not, my original post really did not bash christians that much...note that i requested we not simply try to prove their religion wrong?
Go back and read my post, I'm serious. I said something like
"without simply proving their religion wrong (cuz thats easy)"
All I wanted to do was put my finger on those little paradoxes. Those questions that can't be answered. Even you must admit those exist.
Point of order - any person who treats another with intolerance or hatred is not a true Christian regardless of whether or not they take the name. The only law for Christians is that which Jesus gave at the last supper "love each other as I have loved you." A true Christian would love you as one does a brother, regardless of anything they perceive as a flaw in your character, actions, or person.
Your original question is actually quite simple to answer for anyone that is versed in scripture. The answer is yes, all people go to heaven. I'll try to be brief here rather then praddle on and on; The Revelation of Saint John states that all the damned will be freed. There is no ambiguity in this statement and it is in lock step with the teachings of Jesus. Moreover, Jesus never mentions condemnation to hell for sinners or non-believers, this was a concept that developed in the church over time but is not really supported by scripture. What the scripture does support is that people condem themselves by rejecting God's love, additionally, that is all hell is - being in the absence of God's love. God does not deny love, in fact, the gospels are quite clear in stating that all God's people (those accepting God's love) will receive God's love equally. There is no punishment other then that which we create for ourselves.
Moral Hazard
quote:
Originally posted by Cipha Sounds
Why is the "Pope" sitting in a solid gold chair.
I actually learned the answer to this one last night. I had dinner with a family friend who is a Roman Catholic priest and history professor. His specialty is the history of law and the midevil church. We were discussing the Vatican museum and I mentioned that it can be agravating for many believers to see the vast wealth stored there and try to reconsile that with being asked for money to support the church's charity/apostolic endevors every week. Fr. Jim answered my concern quite quickly... The Church cannot sell those items. Under Roman law anything given to the Church for it's express use cannot under any circumstances be sold or given away, it must be used for the intended purpose of those who donated it. The Pope sits in a gold chair because it was given to the Holy See for that expressed purpose.
eRRaTiK
quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Under Roman law anything given to the Church for it's express use cannot under any circumstances be sold or given away, it must be used for the intended purpose of those who donated it. The Pope sits in a gold chair because it was given to the Holy See for that expressed purpose.
How convenient. Sounds like Church and government made an agreement. Interesting... let's remember that laws are created by men. None of this was written in the scriptures.
quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
There is no punishment other then that which we create for ourselves.
Agreed, same goes for judgment.
Fledz
quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
I actually learned the answer to this one last night. I had dinner with a family friend who is a Roman Catholic priest and history professor. His specialty is the history of law and the midevil church. We were discussing the Vatican museum and I mentioned that it can be agravating for many believers to see the vast wealth stored there and try to reconsile that with being asked for money to support the church's charity/apostolic endevors every week. Fr. Jim answered my concern quite quickly... The Church cannot sell those items. Under Roman law anything given to the Church for it's express use cannot under any circumstances be sold or given away, it must be used for the intended purpose of those who donated it. The Pope sits in a gold chair because it was given to the Holy See for that expressed purpose.
I guess you could say it's more of a cultural respect now, more than a following of the law.
trewqy
Let me give u an atheist point of view.
Religion to us just does not make sense. To us, god is like santa claus. Nothing more. Do u believe in santa? I dont think so. It just isnt possible for a guy flying a sleigh sending all those gifts to good children before the international date and time zone reaches 12AM Christmas day.
I dont want to believe in something that does not make sense.
I think I am a very good person. I do not deny the existence of god out of fear. I just don't believe. I am not afraid of hell because I have no reason to be afraid. I do nothing that would be constituted as "sin" either. I do not have to fear hell to be a good person!!
It is sad that most religious people are only truly good people out of fear. They do not seem to do anything for anyone else for any reason beside their own self benefit...heaven. I am not in denial. I think that it is you who is in denial...you need something to explain what you do not understand. You do not want to accept that there is no purpose for human existence and that you only have one life.
I guess I understand why people believe. It would be comforting to think that after death, there is something else. I prefer to live life based on fact, and live the one life that I KNOW I have to the fullest. Not to WASTE it worshiping something that is not even there!!
Cor version: If I do end up in heaven, I'm gonna give jesus a dirty sanchez.
Moral Hazard
quote:
Originally posted by eRRaTiK
How convenient. Sounds like Church and government made an agreement. Interesting... let's remember that laws are created by men. None of this was written in the scriptures.
You are most likely correct, as the Church had and continues to have enormous pull in Roman/Italian politics. Regardless of the genisis of this law, however, the present Church is constrained by it. You'll note that the Church has been selling enormous amounts of property in order to fund charitable initiatives (and out of court settlements) and that it's own operations are funded through the businesses and corporate entities it owns.
eRRaTiK
Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion Tea Pot
Moral Hazard
quote:
Originally posted by trewqy
It is sad that most religious people are only truly good people out of fear.
I guess I understand why people believe. It would be comforting to think that after death, there is something else.
On point one; sadly many (Christian) people I encounter are not actually "good" people, in as much as they do not actually ascribe to the law of loving all people... these are generally the people that hold fast to their perceived laws and do so out of fear or hopes of a reward. Anyone who tells you that you are going to hell because you are not Christian does not understand their own religion. Those that would likely be considered "good" people do it out of love rather then fear.
On point two; I would be more comforted by believing it all ends at death... the idea of eternity is difficult to grasp and the further idea of spending eternity on a level of existance I cannot comprehend is even more difficult.
trewqy
quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
On point one; sadly many (Christian) people I encounter are not actually "good" people, in as much as they do not actually ascribe to the law of loving all people... these are generally the people that hold fast to their perceived laws and do so out of fear or hopes of a reward. Anyone who tells you that you are going to hell because you are not Christian does not understand their own religion. Those that would likely be considered "good" people do it out of love rather then fear.
On point two; I would be more comforted by believing it all ends at death... the idea of eternity is difficult to grasp and the further idea of spending eternity on a level of existance I cannot comprehend is even more difficult.
it is not about eternity. Its all about being reunited with ur loved ones after death. i think that is the main "selling point" and creation of religion.
eRRaTiK
I believe that all people are born good.
From early on we become programmed and our programming determines how we behave (good vs bad based on who's observing).
quote:
Originally posted by trewqy
I do not have to fear hell to be a good person!!
Agreed.
quote:
You do not want to accept that there is no purpose for human existence
Why wouldn't humans have a purpose?
RJT
God I hate threads like these.
Hooray for religious intolerance and patently wrong assumptions, right guys!!
:gsmile:
s sake - some of you really sicken me.
Moral Hazard
quote:
Originally posted by RJT
God I hate threads like these.
Hooray for religious intolerance and patently wrong assumptions, right guys!!
While I share your distaste for positions based on erred assumptions, which are generally a result of insufficient knowledge of the core subject, I love threads like this! Unless a discussion is opened there is no opportunity to correct (or at least attempt to correct) these flawed assumptions. I see my apostolic mission, not to convert people, but to help them gain a greater understanding of as many sides of the debate as possible. Most people have enough intellectual capacity to arrive at reasonable conclusions, however, in order to do so they need to understand the basis for other people's beliefs.
