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christians (pg. 26)
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| wotyzoid |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
book, chapter and verse please. |
Somewhere in revelations. Im christian but not such extremist to memorize the bible.:p |
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| Frenchie |
| what else does it "sais". |
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| wotyzoid |
..............
Ill go stand in the corner now... |
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| RJT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
The thing is, in this debate, one side is far more vociferous than the other in spreading its opinion.
At least, I've never heard of Atheist Missionaries or Atheists blowing up churches. |
I have to disagree with you here just a touch m8 - while I think there are certainly more violent and public demonstrations by religious fanatics than there are from atheists, to say that the atheists don't attempt to vehemently advocate their position is a bit misguided.
Atheists seem to me to be some of the most vocal individuals in society, they just choose to voice themselves in a different (and oftentimes more socially acceptable manner) than religious fanatics.
I find moderate members on both sides of the issue an absolute delight. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by wotyzoid
Somewhere in revelations. Im christian but not such extremist to memorize the bible.:p |
found it...
| quote: | Revolation of John 14.1-5 (King James Version)
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
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Please to note, it does not state that the 144,000 "pure" are the only ones to enter the kingdom of heaven. BTW, in the language of the early church... Lamb = Martyr |
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| Frenchie |
| LOL re-reading this I realize I totally came across as an ignorant prick, go me, and I'm sorry. I am, however, not sorry to "clubondayamerica" or his ONE DAY bull because apparently If I go against Christianity I'm doomed. |
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| wotyzoid |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
found it...
Please to note, it does not state that the 144,000 "pure" are the only ones to enter the kingdom of heaven. BTW, in the language of the early church... Lamb = Martyr |
Well yeh but sometime you have to take into consideration that some things in the bible should be taken to the meaning, you just never know ,a lot of times, which ones these are. I believe the whole bible as oposed to some, but some transalations of the bible are completely distorted and twisted that they refuse to make any sense at some points though I believe the bible is only one, no matter what version. |
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| inconspicuous |
| quote: | Originally posted by wotyzoid
Well yeh but sometime you have to take into consideration that some things in the bible should be taken to the meaning, you just never know ,a lot of times, which ones these are. I believe the whole bible as oposed to some, but some transalations of the bible are completely distorted and twisted that they refuse to make any sense at some points though I believe the bible is only one, no matter what version. |
so you're "not such extremist to memorize the bible. :p," but you're thoroughly familiar with all the nuances of the different translations? |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by wotyzoid
Well yeh but sometime you have to take into consideration that some things in the bible should be taken to the meaning, you just never know ,a lot of times, which ones these are. I believe the whole bible as oposed to some, but some transalations of the bible are completely distorted and twisted that they refuse to make any sense at some points though I believe the bible is only one, no matter what version. |
I would contend that the passage clearly does not mean the 144,000 lambs are the only ones to enter heaven because this happens prior to the judgement....
| quote: | Revelation of John, Ch 20:11-14
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
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Since Revelation is writen in chronilogical order one would have to conclude that the events in ch 14 happen prior to ch 20. That is of course if one believes that this is revelation is a description of the end of times rather then a metaphore for the strugles of the early christian church against the Roman Empire and a message for the early christians that they will prevail (which is far more probable given the politics of Saint John and the fact that his sentance of exile would have made it impossible for him to send a simple letter in plain language). Further support for the idea that this book is really a political statement against the empire comes from the fact that 666 (six hundred three score and six) = Nero in the numeric code popular amongst early christians... of course Nero was the emperor at the time. |
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| beats and beeps |
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
I have to disagree with you here just a touch m8 - while I think there are certainly more violent and public demonstrations by religious fanatics than there are from atheists, to say that the atheists don't attempt to vehemently advocate their position is a bit misguided.
Atheists seem to me to be some of the most vocal individuals in society, they just choose to voice themselves in a different (and oftentimes more socially acceptable manner) than religious fanatics.
I find moderate members on both sides of the issue an absolute delight. |
The two totally feed off of eachother though, so it becomes hard to tell which side is worse.
For instance, around atheists, I might feel comfortable to admit that i am probably more leaning towards the agnostic side in the sense that i suppose "anything is possible". Probably not agnostic to christianity so much, but just uh spirituality or something in general...something else. I think its soooo unlikely, but you never know right.
However around devout christians or whatever I always take the stance of a strong atheist, because with a lot of them, if you give them a crack of light, they will jump on you and be like SEE YOU KNOW THE TRUTH IN THE BACK OF YOUR MIND YOU CANT DENY IT WHEN I SAY JESUS IT MAKES YOU SICK BECAUSE NO MATTER WHAT AS A HUMAN WHEN YOU HEAR THAT NAME YOUR SOUL KNEELS TO HIS NAME WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, BUT YOUR MIND IS TRYING TO RESIST IT AND SHUT IT OUT. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by beats and beeps
However around devout christians or whatever I always take the stance of a strong atheist, because with a lot of them, if you give them a crack of light, they will jump on you |
This is heavily dependant on the sect of Christianity to which they ascribe and what they see as their apostolic mission. One of the most important tennents of the Christian Churchs is the apostolic mission.... (Jesus told Peter to tend his flock) this is the genisis of the apostolic mission. Some believe this means we are to care for our fellow man, other's believe this means we have to spread the good news (gospel), while other's believe this means we must convert the non-believers. Generally speaking: Anabaptists, Catholics, and Othodoxed churches take the "care for fellow man" approach; Lutherns, Anglicans et al, Reformed, Baptists, Calvinists (I think) take the "spread the word" interpretation; Evangelical Lutherns, Penecostals, Born-Again Christians, Mormons, and other Evangelical faiths take the "convert the dirty heathens" approach. As much as I disagree with the tactics of the conversion at all costs crowd, I do respect that they are practising what their faith calls for. You would likely find that they would leave you alone if you were to identify yourself as belonging to one church or another and stated you were firm in your belief (sure it may be a lie but it's better then having the "search party" that "found Jesus" chasing you down the street with a net). |
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| Fledz |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Genetisists have deduced that the most distant any two people are is 20th cousins. Given that you and I share a European ancestory (presumed by your flag) then it is likely we are much closer... 8-10th cousins perhaps. ;)
Seriously, I take it from your post that you have developed somewhat similar beliefs, correct? |
Pretty much yea. Catholic upbringing but I'm a scientist and I see it the same was as you do. Crazy.
Particularly the bit about the big bang and there being something before it. |
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