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Libya Situation (pg. 50)
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| Lews |
| So much stupidity in this thread from so many people. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Weak response man. You've been unable to refute anything I've stated so now you just come with the "you're a conspiratorialist".
Just a little reminder, it's not a conspiracy if it's true ;) |
Whatever. Your mind isn't going to be changed- you believe what you believe (and you think I'm the ideologue?). You turned the whole discussion into something it wasn't about; one snippet about yellow cake uranium while discussing the Iraq/Libya graphic I posted, and you steered it into a debate about the "REAL" reasons why we went into Iraq. Did it ever occur to you that maybe I wasn't even remotely keen about what was going on after the first year? You're just assuming I was a fervent supporter of The Buler and think the whole thing was and still is a great idea. And it's nothing of the sort. Just because I think your conspiracy theories about Bush potentially ruining his legacy and etching his name in the annals of history in a negative light for oil is bull doesn't mean I'm a blind supporter of the Iraq situation. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lews
So much stupidity in this thread from so many people. |
It's just like Libya! Why do you think Gaddhy is still there? |
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| DJ RANN |
Ummm, as part of NATO which they can't renage on, being a primary member of it and all.
Again: the USA as of right now has zero assets active in Libya. NATO does, but there is no USA military action in Libya.
And anyway, that article is talking about reductions......
Which brings me nicely to that topic you keep avoiding:
As of 2006, Organizers calculated Iraq war's cost at $134.5 billion and are adding $177 million per day, which comes to $7.4 million per hour or $122,820 per minute.
$4m a day sounds like a ing bargain :tongue3 |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Now whose getting ironic, lol. So Valerie Plame was outed for......? Oh snap. Oh let's forget curve ball, that didn't happen, let's talk about all the WMD's that were found from all those correct intelligence reports. Oh, dammit. How about the 45 minute warning papers. Nope, no luck there. How about those mobile biological weapon labs. No, still nothing. God damn, some of this must have stuck. Let's come back to it later? It's only been 9 years, we'll find something. , too late the guy that started is doing speaking tours (now that's ironic) |
What I was pointing out champ was that those in the white house weren’t the only ones telling fibs. A huge amount of emphasis was placed on Curveball’s information, and saddam also did his damndest to fool everyone into thinking he had WMD, primarily to keep iran at bay. Im not denying the intelligence services in the US were absolutely useless in this regard, but I also understand that the situation was far more complicated than “bush did it”. They failed horribly in their duty of care for sure, but that failure can be spread around. Congress, Curveball, Saddam, intelligence services etc. your assertions are simplistic and shallow, almost child-like.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Hell no. Bush made a personal fortune out of the war. it's a fact (you know those pesky thing called stuff like "proof" and "truth").. |
So, provide the evidence. You repeating statements doesn’t make them any more true.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Iraq is the no.6 exporter of Oil to the USA. Bush family makes money by drilling for oil, mainly in the middle east. C'mon now, this isn't that difficult. |
So Bush’s family is drilling for oil on behalf of other companies who actually own the oil contracts? Again, provide the evidence. You just playing connect-the-dots isn’t evidence.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
but yes, the chinese and russians have been far more astute at picking up the spoils after the fact :stongue: Don't hate the players, especially when you started the game. |
So you’re saying that the US’ primary motive for war was profit from oil, and that this oil is now under contract by russia and chinese companies. Wow, their nefarious plan wasn’t very good was it? |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
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so "$4 million a day to keep 50 fighter jets and nearly 40 support aircraft in the Libya conflict, including the cost of munitions" is zero assets? Sounds like a lot of assets. "A reduction" doesn't = zero by the way.
EDIT: shout out to PKC for doing a better job articulating and exposing RANN's tin foil hat conspiracies. :toocool: |
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| EddieZilker |
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...tm_source=fixed
These should all be required viewing before anyone can post in this thread, again!
Sorry. That's probably a bit hasty of me but still. There's a lot of "facts" that seem to be up for debate that really shouldn't be and it's a very complex issue. |
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| Zyklon_Jay |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
lot of assets. "A reduction" doesn't = zero by the way.
EDIT: shout out to PKC for doing a better job articulating and exposing RANN's tin foil hat conspiracies. :toocool: |
look at you going all ad homen and sheeeet. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...tm_source=fixed
These should all be required viewing before anyone can post in this thread, again!
Sorry. That's probably a bit hasty of me but still. There's a lot of "facts" that seem to be up for debate that really shouldn't be and it's a very complex issue. |
Ive seen most of those, nice to see them package them together so nicely. The best one (for me) was the 2-part examination of the media’s role leading up to war. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
What I was pointing out champ was that those in the white house weren’t the only ones telling fibs. A huge amount of emphasis was placed on Curveball’s information, and saddam also did his damndest to fool everyone into thinking he had WMD, primarily to keep iran at bay. Im not denying the intelligence services in the US were absolutely useless in this regard, but I also understand that the situation was far more complicated than “bush did it”. They failed horribly in their duty of care for sure, but that failure can be spread around. Congress, Curveball, Saddam, intelligence services etc. your assertions are simplistic and shallow, almost child-like.
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What you're completely deluded about was it it was some kind of "failure" of intelligence; that they were mislead by this one guy.
They were not "mislead", it fitted their agenda, and I don't believe Curve Ball's story that "he could not beleive that they were taking him seriously" and it was only later that he realized his lies had been used as the "evidence" for the invasion. He was paid (with Asylum amongst other things) to supply the basis for the invasion, which is why the Bush administration did not allow access to him by anyone other than a very select group of CIA cronies.
Curve ball had his own motivations for lying, but the job of the intelligence services is to verify and find complimenting evidence but they were having none of it.
There simply was, and is, no evidence apart from a verbal statements of questionable origin yet everyone else in the intelligence community was telling them any other evidence simply did not exist.
So the logical step was to go to war?
Sorry, but you're either incredibly stupid or for your own reasons of party pride, you just don't want to take the blinkers off.
People were screaming about the lack of evidence then, and they were silenced in no uncertain way -valerie Plame being one of them. Sadly the silenced have been proved right by 9 years of occupation, 4000+ military deaths and free run of the country, not to find a single WMD in Iraq.
This isn't rocket science. They didn't have any evidence and haven't found anything there. It's not just a mass coincidental "failure", geddit?
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
So, provide the evidence. You repeating statements doesn’t make them any more true.
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FACT: 2004, The UN made a formal complaint that Bush was "holding back information concerning more than $1 billion in reconstruction contracts awarded to several well-connected American firms without competitive bidding" the main reciepient being...you got it, Halliburton!
| quote: | Originally posted by On the Issues.org
Halliburton, the company formerly headed by Vice President Cheney, has won contracts worth more than $1.7 billion under Operation Iraqi Freedom and stands to make hundreds of millions more dollars under a no-bid contract awarded by the US Army Corps of Engineers. The size and scope of the government contracts awarded to Halliburton in connection with the war in Iraq are significantly greater than was previously disclosed.
Services performed by Halliburton include building and managing military bases and logistical support. Halliburton has emerged as the biggest single government contractor in Iraq. Interest in Halliburton was ignited by a routine Corps of Engineers announcement in March reporting that the company had been awarded a no-bid contract, with a $7 billion limit, for putting out fires at Iraqi oil wells. Corps spokesmen justified the lack of competition on the grounds that the operation was part of a classified war plan and the Army did not have time to secure competitive bids.
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That's was only up to the end of 2003, can you imagine what the next 6 years also yielded for him as a shareholder?
Here's a taste:
The Washington-based, Institute for Policy Studies, and the Boston-based, United for a Fair Economy.
This study found that since 9/11, the 34 defense CEOs have pocketed a combined total of $984 million, or enough, the report says, to cover the wages for more than a million Iraqis for a year. In 2005, the average total compensation for the CEOs of large US corporations was only 6% above 2001 figures, while defense CEOs pay was 108% higher.
Look up the report for yourself. All you have to do is open your eyes, type and look.
Enough about cheyney.
let's get to Bush:
FACT: Bush Sn, major stakeholder in the Carlyle group.
Carlyle specializes in military and security investments.
Bush Jr. in office Carlyle's profits soar; it received $677 million in contracts in 2002, then a whopping $2.1 billion in 2003.
In the fall of 2003, Bush Senior finally resigned from the Carlyle Group as the accusations of family war profiteering grew louder. However, according to the Washington Post, he still retained stock in the firm and gave speeches on its behalf for a fee of $500,000.
SOURCE:
http://www.counterpunch.org/pringle04122007.html
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
So Bush’s family is drilling for oil on behalf of other companies who actually own the oil contracts? Again, provide the evidence. You just playing connect-the-dots isn’t evidence.
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See the link above for some of the Bush family (not just Dubya) connections to war profiteering, including oil and defense profiteering.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
their nefarious plan wasn’t very good was it? |
Why? It worked out great for the Bush and Cheyney families. Just that the russians and chinese are making out very well indeed.
Boring.
Next! |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
What you're completely deluded about was it it was some kind of "failure" of intelligence; that they were mislead by this one guy. |
That’s not what im saying at all. There’s little doubt they “sexed up” the white paper. However, an over-reliance on Curveball was certainly part of that (which again, is totally their fault).
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
They were not "mislead", it fitted their agenda, |
Yes it did, and their agenda was nation building and removing a reliance on saddam’s oil. It wasn’t so bush could go drill for oil with his family’s drills.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Curve ball had his own motivations for lying, but the job of the intelligence services is to verify and find complimenting evidence but they were having none of it. |
Agreed.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
There simply was, and is, no evidence apart from a verbal statements of questionable origin yet everyone else in the intelligence community was telling them any other evidence simply did not exist.
So the logical step was to go to war?
Sorry, but you're either incredibly stupid or for your own reasons of party pride, you just don't want to take the blinkers off.
People were screaming about the lack of evidence then, and they've been proved right by 9 years of occupation, 4000+ military deaths and free run of the country, not to find a single WMD. |
You keep erecting strawman arguments im not making. Im not denying for a second that it was a complete balls-up. Im denying that bush went to war for his own personal enrichment.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
let's get to Bush:
FACT: Bush Sn, major stakeholder in the Carlyle group.
Carlyle specializes in military and security investments.
Bush Jr. in office Carlyle's profits soar; it received $677 million in contracts in 2002, then a whopping $2.1 billion in 2003.
In the fall of 2003, Bush Senior finally resigned from the Carlyle Group as the accusations of family war profiteering grew louder. However, according to the Washington Post, he still retained stock in the firm and gave speeches on its behalf for a fee of $500,000. |
SOURCE:
http://www.counterpunch.org/pringle04122007.html [/quote]
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
See the link above for some of the Bush family (not just Dubya) connections to war profiteering, including oil and defense profiteering. |
There are numerous links there and im at work, if you could cut and paste the oil stuff for me it would be appreciated. Im not interested in the defense contractors, that stuff is well publicised and not in dispute.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Why? It worked out great for the Bush and Cheyney families. Just that the russians and chinese are making out very well indeed. |
Im not sure how I can reason with someone who has such a childish understanding of complex political issues. |
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| EddieZilker |
| Just asking, but are either of you sure how far apart on what you're arguing, you really are? |
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