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Libya Situation (pg. 55)
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Truth. So many of them are just awful to listen to and don't help the situation. |
The Democratic Caucus isn't exactly helping matters, either. Did you see Jon Stewart, last night? |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Yeah, the guy who thinks large scale invasions involve more than the whims of 2 men is the naïve one, lol!
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never said that did? (otherwise post it up, bullter). They sure as lead the charge and made it official though, and you can't deny it.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
That was the standard neocon assertion, that they could destroy dictators and build nations in line with US strategic interests (the mid east/oil etc).
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No, it was in your statement:
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
I think that the US went to war due to the neo-conservatives dominating the republican party, who had long held desires to remove saddam from power, reduce the US’ dependence on hostile oil and create a democratic nation more suitable for US interests in the region.
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But you've decided to alter your language now.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Repeating the same unfounded assertions doesn’t make them any less unfounded.
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That would be true had I not posted all the links you can read for yourself "if you weren't at work". Outside of that one link I've given you two others in this thread that you keep not wanting to reference.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
I didn’t backtrack, I pointed out this wasn’t the primary reason, but was part of it.
But at first you said you didn't agree with me at all, and that I'm an idoit. So you do agree with me. partly. Right. Glad we cleared that up.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
You’re right, I lose patience with imbeciles whose understandings of complex political issues boils down to childish conspiracy nonsense.
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Making money from invading other countries isn't that complex I'm afraid. I'm honestly sorry you can't grasp at least the motivation simplicity. Of course, I could go in to every little mechanism of these "complex political issues", like the money made by lobbyists in Michigan who wanted the contracts for the jet engines that would be ordered due to the need to increase defense spending, or private security contrator hiring at firms like blackwater, or the massive increase in arms exports for Britain, but let's face it - IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO MONEY.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
The article you posted wasn’t about oil. You told me to follow the links, and I asked you to quote the relevant information, since I’m at work. I don’t deny the profiteering re contracts to defend/rebuild, the cronyism was strong with them. What I am disputing is that the invasion was about claiming Iraqi oil (by either the US or Bush’s personal theft team) and the contracts were the reason the US went to war. There is a wealth of supporting evidence for this, which you just hand-wave away in favour of your immature little notions.
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Oil and Defense go hand in hand on this one and they were in it for spoils of both, hard. I've posted links, including one from the WSJ dated just a week ago showing US oil companies are about to profit ridiculously hard as a direct result of the war.
But fine, you still want more proof and I'll spoon it you to get it in to your thick head. Here's a list of contractors in Iraq. Click on a few of them and you'll see many of them provide "oil and gas consulting" or "Energy infrastructure".
http://projects.publicintegrity.org...?act=pro&fil=IQ
Don't forget to look at the Carlyle group page I linked though. That's a biggie right there with a DIRECT link to Bush family income.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Gee thanks. I’ll let all the russian and chinese oil companies know they’ve got competition for all the contracts they’ve already won!
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Dude, you've tried that three times and it didn't work then so stop hanging on to it. The pot just got shared around, as was the intention as there is more than enough. See above and previous links. The could not ever commandeer all the oil in Iraq if they wanted to.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Go back a few pages and you’ll see I am an abusive cunt who can’t stand fools and their idiotic opinions in subjects that are apparently far beyond them. I don’t give a about the GOP (as any TA here can attest to). all I care about is accuracy, and your revisionism isn’t only wrong, it’s completely retarded.
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It's my opinion. Don't ing tell me yours is gospel and mine is wrong, especially when you've given me nothing to prove otherwise yet I've posted a bunch of links supporting my assertions. in other words, I could give less of a what you think, because you I've done my homework.
It's just like science; it happens whether you believe in it or not.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
All of that is completely contradicted by chinese and Russian domination in oil contracts in post war Iraq.
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See above. And again, it's not just about the Oil itself. it's all the infrastructure that goes with oil, much of which is provided by companies like the Carlyle group and Haliburton. They also make money off those chinese and russian contracts for providing expertise, security, transport etc.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Yes, a pre-conceived plan by the neocons who wanted to smash Iraq since the first gulf war (see letter to clinton I posted already). This isn’t news, many people in the US had long desired to take out saddam.
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But that was not what was presented either by them or by you at first and what i've been saying ALL ALONG so WHY THE are you fighting so hard to disagree with me?
You just want to try to make some petty diferentiation between the republican party at that time and it's overwhelming majority of Neocons (hint, the key is in the word majority).
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Well its good to see the US finally won one. I suppose obama owns Exxon?
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Wow.
Just wow. I just take that as another late in the day concession as you can't refute it now.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
As far as identifying the gears and machinations behind the war, then no, your viewpoint is one-dimensional and immature. |
no, it's just ultimate driving force. I don't care to get in to semantics where the root is one common denominator (oil and defense money for a small number of individual who have a vested interest in increasing government spending for specific tasks). Hint: vastly expanded annual defense spending, massive increase defense lobbying spending, Oil company profits.
But no, must just be timely co-incidence. Of course. You're right. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
The Democratic Caucus isn't exactly helping matters, either. Did you see Jon Stewart, last night? |
I can't watch that guy anymore either. His mannerisms are so annoying... with that whole punch line delivery style followed by staring at the camera with that pursed look, paused extra long for extended applause. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
I can't watch that guy anymore either. His mannerisms are so annoying... with that whole punch line delivery style followed by staring at the camera with that pursed look, paused extra long for extended applause. |
The short story is that some Democrat speaking into a live mic, let slip that the Democratic Caucus wanted them to constantly refer to the Tea Party as "extreme". The bit then edits to the same guy calling them "extreme" during a speech, and he's really, really hamming it up, too. |
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| Joss Weatherby |
Course that followed up with Boners "ima forget how the US constitution works, even though we read it in the chamber because we are all like you know, constitutional scholars and what not" plan to somehow let the house alone implement bills... :wtf:
God ing damn it Kevin, are you really that stupid that you can blindly follow these ing retards. I mean come on, at least democrats have the ability for self-deprecation, and often their base is openly hostile to many of its members, but for s sake man... You guys are like robots, and the only time you aren't is when someone is not being, and I'll say it cause its true, extreme enough. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
Course that followed up with Boners "ima forget how the US constitution works, even though we read it in the chamber because we are all like you know, constitutional scholars and what not" plan to somehow let the house alone implement bills... :wtf:
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Yeah. That was a funny bit. But the point was that Republicans are much better at the sort of behavior Democrats would do well to avoid. Still, the excesses of the Republicans about it were funny. |
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| Nrg2Nfinit |
revenue sharing policy is detailed here:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL34064.pdf
| quote: |
six of its largest oil fields and two large, undeveloped natural gas fields. Iraq pre-qualified 41
international companies to participate in the bidding process. In the run-up to the bidding round,
political scrutiny of Iraqi Oil Minister Hussein Al Shahristani intensified as members of Iraq’s
Council of Representatives (Parliament) voiced strong concerns about the terms of the contracts
on offer and about Shahristani’s management of the oil sector to date. Calls for a vote of no
confidence in Shahristani were rebuffed, although the Oil and Gas Committee in parliament has
moved forward with plans to question the minister, with a session scheduled for mid-November.
The first bidding round reflected international interest in and apprehension about the terms of
potential investment in Iraq and prevailing political and security conditions. At the close of the
bidding round on June 30, only one field bid had been accepted by Iraq’s Oil Ministry—the joint
bid by U.K. oil giant BP plc and China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC) was chosen for
the service contract for Rumaila, Iraq’s largest oil field. Iraq’s cabinet subsequently approved the
proposed terms of the Rumaila bid and parliamentary leaders stated their desire to review any
related contract before its signature. Bids for the other five oil fields on offer in the first round
demonstrated wide differences in negotiating positions between international oil companies and
Iraqi officials. Iraq sought per barrel service payments at far lower dollar-per-barrel levels than
nearly all bidders were prepared to accept, in some cases bids exceeded Iraq’s offered terms by
ratios of up to ten to one. Subsequent negotiations between Iraqis and international oil companies
reportedly have demonstrated some flexibility on both sides, as Iraqis relaxed some production
expectations and companies agreed to lower per barrel terms. A consortium bid led by Italy’s ENI
reportedly was initialed on November 2, 2009, and will now be sent for review by the Iraqi
cabinet. The bid, which includes U.S. oil company Occidental Petroleum, was amended to accept
Iraq’s original offer of a $2 per barrel remuneration fee, subject to taxation.
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so basically foreign company's would be paid 2$ per barrel extracted while they pay iraq market price for the oil extracted. These fees are also subjected to taxation by the iraqi govt.
also:
| quote: |
Iraq’s State Oil Marketing Organization (SOMO) remains responsible for the sale and export of
Iraqi crude oil. Under the terms of United Nations Security Council resolution (UNSCR) 1483
(and renewed through subsequent Security Council resolutions), revenue from Iraq’s oil exports is
deposited into an Iraq-controlled account held at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York
(FRBNY). Five percent of the funds are reserved for a United Nations Compensation Fund for
reparations to the victims of the 1990 Iraqi invasion and occupation of Kuwait. The remaining
95% is deposited into a Development Fund for Iraq (DFI) account at the FRBNY and is then
transferred to an Iraqi Ministry of Finance account at the Central Bank of Iraq for further
distribution to Iraqi government ministries.40 Iraq has sought to reduce the percentage paid to
Kuwait to 1%. However, as of October 2009, a proposal to channel paid reparation funds into
joint investment projects has been rejected by Kuwaiti parliamentarians. |
So the detail here is that the money is being primarily fed back into iraq. contractors pay iraq for their oil. After that its refined and sold to the consumers. Thats how the companies make money. Its not as if these contractors are ransacking the iraqi oil (as you have it played out) and selling it without expense. It's nationalized so cost of goods sold for the company goes straight to iraq fund. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
never said that did? (otherwise post it up, bullter). They sure as lead the charge and made it official though, and you can't deny it. |
sorry, i thought we were arguing about whether bush and cheney invaded iraq so they could make a profit for themselves?
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
But you've decided to alter your language now. |
no i haven't. i stand by what i said originally. there was an element within the GOP whose ideology got a chance to play hardball post 911.
| quote: |
Commentators from divergent parts of the political spectrum––such as Democracy Now! and American Free Press, including Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Jody Williams and former Republican Congressmen Pete McCloskey and Paul Findley––voiced their concerns about the influence of the PNAC on the decision by President George W. Bush to invade Iraq. Some have regarded the PNAC's January 16, 1998 letter to President Clinton, which urged him to embrace a plan for "the removal of Saddam Hussein’s regime from power," and the large number of members of PNAC appointed to the Bush administration as evidence that the 2003 invasion of Iraq was a foregone conclusion.
The television program Frontline, broadcast on PBS, presented the PNAC's letter to President Clinton as a notable event in the leadup to the Iraq war.
Media commentators have found it significant that signatories to the PNAC's January 16, 1998 letter to President Clinton (and some of its other position papers, letters, and reports) included such later Bush administration officials as Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, John Bolton, Richard Armitage, and Elliott Abrams |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projec...nvasion_of_Iraq
I'm not trying to deny anyone their role or responsibility in ultimately declaring war, certainly not the republican party, when i say that the neocons dominated foreign policy under bush.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
That would be true had I not posted all the links you can read for yourself "if you weren't at work". Outside of that one link I've given you two others in this thread that you keep not wanting to reference. |
i am not interested in hunting through multiple web pages trying to find a vague reference to my questions. if you have something you can quote it here and i will always read it.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Making money from invading other countries isn't that complex I'm afraid. |
you're right there ;)
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
I'm honestly sorry you can't grasp at least the motivation simplicity. Of course, I could go in to every little mechanism of these "complex political issues", like the money made by lobbyists in Michigan who wanted the contracts for the jet engines that would be ordered due to the need to increase defense spending, or private security contrator hiring at firms like blackwater, or the massive increase in arms exports for Britain, but let's face it - IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO MONEY. |
i grasp the simplicity. and if i accept that you're correct, that it IS all about the money, im telling you why iraq (and afghanistan, but that's another argument obviously) were the countries chosen for the military industrial complex's cunning ruse.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
But fine, you still want more proof and I'll spoon it you to get it in to your thick head. Here's a list of contractors in Iraq. Click on a few of them and you'll see many of them provide "oil and gas consulting" or "Energy infrastructure".
http://projects.publicintegrity.org...?act=pro&fil=IQ |
i havent actually asked you for that. what i have asked you for is the bush-oil links in iraq, but i admit the oil consulting part didn't occur to me.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Dude, you've tried that three times and it didn't work then so stop hanging on to it. The pot just got shared around, as was the intention as there is more than enough. See above and previous links. The could not ever commandeer all the oil in Iraq if they wanted to. |
it was awfully nice of the conspirators to let foreign corporations at the trough first after a war they'd done all the hard work on. what awesome chaps. US companies weren't just out-bid or anything, there was definite collusion.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
It's my opinion. Don't ing tell me yours is gospel and mine is wrong, especially when you've given me nothing to prove otherwise yet I've posted a bunch of links supporting my assertions. in other words, I could give less of a what you think, because you I've done my homework. |
my narrative is well-established gospel and yours is wrong.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
But that was not what was presented either by them or by you at first and what i've been saying ALL ALONG so WHY THE are you fighting so hard to disagree with me? |
no, you claim it (the war) was financial, and i claim that iraq's invasion was ideological/strategic. that's why im disagreeing with you.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
You just want to try to make some petty diferentiation between the republican party at that time and it's overwhelming majority of Neocons (hint, the key is in the word majority). |
jesus christ. (again) i don't give a whether it was the ing easter bunny. call those behind war whatever you ing like. do not care. all i care about is motive.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Just wow. I just take that as another late in the day concession as you can't refute it now. |
my original comments stand. US companies have not been the major beneficiaries of the oil contracts awarded in iraq. indeed as far as i am aware the exxon deal was the first. that isn't the kind of climax id expect to such a grand scheme of perfect manipulation. |
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| Joss Weatherby |
You know Rann could make a convincing argument about things like US Government logistical support contracts awarded to Haliburton and KBR at little to no competition...
But saying its about oil is so much easier and sexy sounding. It scores the babes at the liberal arts colleges. |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
You know Rann could make a convincing argument about things like US Government logistical support contracts awarded to Haliburton and KBR at little to no competition...
But saying its about oil is so much easier and sexy sounding. It scores the babes at the liberal arts colleges. |
Totally.
But seriously, when distilled to it's simplest form that sadly what it comes down to.
@pkcRAISTLIN - it seems we're arguing the same point from different perspectives. I agree that they made the most of 911, but that was just "fortunate" and well used opportunity for certain factions (figureheaded by Bush and Cheyney) to use as a springboard for long before planned intentions.
The ultimate intention was to free up the oil fields from saddams monopoly and facilitate unprecedented government spending on defense, the essence of which is to make a small number of people even more wealthy.
They were playing the long game (see incompletion of Gulf conflict) and I've always believed the recent Exxon contract is the ultimate stage of the plan, finally coming to fruition for them. The preceding parts of the plan were far more immediate in yield; huge emergency spending on defense to go to war, which itself then allowed massive business opportunities in logistics, transport, security, consulting, engineering and delivery all associated with oil.
I've already shown that both Bush and Cheney had (and still to this day have) undeniable and broad (but direct) personal business interests in the Iraq war, so again, I could go in minutia of every little aspect, but ultimately, I believe this was about making money, for personal gain, from war and oil. |
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| Zyklon_Jay |
| you don't have to worry about money being wasted if they decide no to pay the troops kev. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
You can suppose whatever you want about the future but the USA as of right now has zero assetts active in Libya. They were in and out, something that Bush could not achieve in 8 years. |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
the fact that the US went in, and got out (unlike both of Bush's wars) shows this was humanitarian.
You;re just angry because unlike bush, he didn't it up (twice) |
You were saying??
| quote: | U.S. still doing limited airstrikes for NATO in Libya
(CBS/AP) WASHINGTON - The Pentagon revealed for the first time Wednesday that U.S. fighter jets have continued to strike Libyan air defenses after turning the mission over to NATO.
Pentagon spokesman Col. Dave Lapan said the jets were assigned to NATO and are operating under NATO command. They can be used when needed to take out enemy defenses as part of the enforcement of the no-fly zone.
CBS News National Security correspondent David Martin reported the missions, announced in an oh-by-the-way fashion by the Pentagon, have involved a handful of F-16s that have dropped a half-dozen bombs. |
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011...n20053556.shtml
I don't know if you can handle many more embarrassments after PKC gutted you in that last debate. |
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