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Jihad on Denmark - freedom of expression rears its ugly head once again... (pg. 11)
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| InterMilan31 |
| Another thing...if this thing escolates anymore meaning terrorism or something of that sort maybe the Jihad is coming(i think thats the right term) |
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| Purple |
Its a war now, up untill now it was only between US and Muslims, now its between Muslims and whole world.
lol at those London pics. LOL |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| So a couple of days ago one guy in Croatia got death threats sent to him because he put one of those caricatures on his blog. FFS I think I'm gonna get myself a t-shirt with a huge Muhammed bomber pic. |
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| Purple |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
So a couple of days ago one guy in Croatia got death threats sent to him because he put one of those caricatures on his blog. FFS I think I'm gonna get myself a t-shirt with a huge Muhammed bomber pic. |
emc^2 alsp posted this pic on this Forum in Chillout Room, I am worried for him. :confused:
I am scared. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
An unexpected reaction: |
Not really. Several clergymen in Denmark have spoken out in support of muslims sensibilities over freedom of press. Hell, they even organized to do their Christmas eve sermons on this very topic.
When reading blogs and comments from the Middle East, it is quite clear to me that a lot of these people cannot grasp the concept of atheism, and that's really unfortunate as they are not battling Christians but secularists.
Similarly, seeing the US siding with extremists over democratic principles was not really surprising. Highly hypocritical, considering the targeted surveillance of muslims and events at Guantanamo Bay, but not surprising.
Unfortunately, the view that this is a war between Christianity and Islam (orchestrated by the Jews) is a common misconception today:
| quote: | Originally posted by Purple
Also just like a naked pic of Jesus masturbating will be offending to you |
I don't know who the "you" are referring to, but as Dane and thread starter, let me simply say "no".
| quote: | Originally posted by Purple
Its a war now, up untill now it was only between US and Muslims, now its between Muslims and whole world. |
I agree that this might turn into a war, but as I've tried to outline above, it won't be between Muslims and the rest of the world. It will be between atheists and religious fundamentalists.
| quote: | Originally posted by Renegade
Yeah, the cross of the Danish flag. Christianity has nothing to do with it. |
Actually, the cross in the Danish flag is the Christian one. However, I doubt that the people who made the effigy would have had the mental capacity for looking it up.
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
And many educated and informed Mulims would argue is "unislamic." And you're right, it certainly isn't helping anyone, especially them and all the other muslims who would be generalized into the same category because someone saw this picture that only reinforced their perception. What you won't see in the media is Muslims publicy demonstrating and condeming this sort of behaviour or discussing the inappropriateness of such behaviour in a more private setting. My point simply is that, although these lunatics do exist, that pretty much the only image you see on TV or in the News, which certainly doesn't reflect the views of all Muslims (not that I'm saying you're making this claim). |
I can only speak for Danish news-coverage, but moderate muslims get quite a lot of air time.
However, that being said, right now the sale Danish products in countries such as Saudi-arabia is nill. Absolutely nothing. That more than suggests to me that it it not a minority of these people that are stupid sheeps. It's the majority. By far.
That you and muslims I meet in the west are far more enlightened doesn't change the fact that Middle Eastern muslims have proved themselves to be stupid and racists. If I were in your position I would distance myself from these people in spite of your shared religous base, and because of all the differences. Just as I try to distance myself from all the extreme right nutbags that have jumped to the defense of free speech for the wrong reasons.
Finally, the Guardian-piece:
| quote: | Originally posted by The Guardian UK
Others might shrug.They're only a cartoons. What's the fuss? Cartoons, however, can be a powerful means of catalysing and disseminating ideas, be they pertinently satirical or hideously warped. Cartoons were, for example, used extensively by the Nazis in their anti-semitic propaganda campaigns, depicting Jews as hook-nosed, usurious grotesques molesting pure German women. It would be excessive to suggest that there is a moral equivalence between those Nazi cartoons and the those that appeared in the Danish newspaper. The fact remains, however, that as an editorial act, rather than one of censorship, these items should never have been published. They are deeply crass.
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The analogy between Nazi cartoons and the cartoons of Jyllands-posten, is not only "excessive" - it's flat out ridiculous. As far as I can see, there's one out of the twelve cartoons (the turban bomb one), which can be described as racists - the rest are far from "crass". Even the one that might be "crass", is still based on actual facts: Terrorists *do* use Islam as a weapon for recruitment, and they do tend to use bombs.
Furthermore, and what is of uttermost importance, Jews back in Nazi Germany, weren't hurting anyone. Radical Islamics, on the other hand, have issued death threats and killed those who do not live according to their teachings. Let's not forget why these cartoons were brought in the first place: It was provoked by the fact that nobody dared illustrate a childrens book, because of threats from radicals.
| quote: | Originally posted by The Guardian UK
It suggests that Islam, as represented by the figure of Muhammad (blasphemy, of course, to represent him at all but that's by the by), is the font of all terrorism - the sort of syllogistic nonsense that leads some to conclude that, because some muggers are black men, all black men are muggers. There would be no general inclination to defend any cartoon which suggested that black men were thus predisposed - it would properly be condemned as racism. |
I've seen plenty of cartoons and movies where criminals are black. Actually, most movies I see portray terrorists as Arabs too.
| quote: | Originally posted by The Guardian UK
Here, however, is the awkward point, one on which the government's ill-fated bill teetered. To have a go at someone on the grounds of their race is to have a go at them as people - to do so on the grounds of their religion is merely an attack upon their ideas, rather than their person. |
The problem with this passage is that it misrepresents the setting. Noone is having a go at someone because of his or her religion. The go is at the religion in itself. If it was the first case, it would be classified as racism, and there would be laws to protect the individual.
| quote: | Originally posted by The Guardian UK
Technically, this is a valid distinction. However, in this instance, it has allowed our Danish cartoonists to get away with the crudest and most incendiary of generalisations. |
I wonder how this editor would describe the cartoons of Jews that are so widespread on web pages of Islamic extremists?
| quote: | Originally posted by The Guardian UK
In 1997, when I was director of the Runnymede Trust, I helped launch the Commission on Islamophobia, a newly coined phrase to describe a phenomenon that had grown in tandem with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. We found that "Islamophobia" wasn't just confined to BNP thugs hurling pigs' heads through the windows of Pakistani households, or the vile poison spouted by BNP chairman Nick Griffin. It manifested itself in middle class circles too, around dining tables, on Radio 4, much of it in (understandably) indignant response to the Salman Rushdie fatwa. Under the pretext of taking a rearguard action against religious dogma, it became permissible to unveil a cultural contempt for peoples who tended to be brown-skinned and poorly off. I sense a similar undercurrent today, in the cathartic excitement with which some have rallied to the Free Speech banner, a sense of fear and loathing of the troublesome, brown hordes we see jumping up and down brandishing guns on our TV screens. |
This is absolutely beautiful: The editor is up in defense because of "the crudest and most incendiary of generalisations", and then proceeds and accuses everyone in favour of freedom of speech on this issue as racists. The irony is so obvious, I cannot even begin to comprehend that no one at the Guardian spotted it before sending it to press.
| quote: | Originally posted by The Guardian UK
There's more to it than that, however. Muslim grievances are not merely spiritual but, more pressingly, material. The rage expressed by demonstrators in Gaza against Scandinavian aid workers was, at a deeper level, the rage of the disenfranchised, the displaced. In the UK and across Europe, Muslims are socially and economically disadvantaged, among those at the bottom of the pile. Cultural gestures such as the Danish cartoons may please well-to-do secular liberals in helping push back the envelope of free speech and a snook at religious dogma. To Muslims, however, they merely add to a sense of disaffection, of themselves as a pariah people. Another insult to add to their social injury. |
So, because some muslims are poor and frustrated, we should all allow ourselves to be threatened into living by their religious beliefs? Are you fvcking kidding me? What kind of an argument is this? |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| There's one more thing about that Guardian article that was misrepresented, and I think you missed it. One more big difference between anti-jewish cartoons and these caricatures is that these are not state sponsored and therefore have as much to do with the state of Denmark as those freaks in London had to do with UK. |
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| stevieboy32808 |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
As always, the Guardian (UK) delivers the best analysis and op-ed columns. How good is this essay? It's so good that it made me rethink my initial stance a little bit.
Source:
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/comm...1701681,00.html
Denmark's cartoons satirising Islam have inflamed Muslims, but the injury runs deeper than religious insult, says Sukhvinder Stubbs
Friday February 3, 2006
The furore concerning the cartoons published in a Danish newspaper depicting the prophet Muhammad as a terrorist has yet to abate....such debating society pedantry, however, fails to acknowledge that in the case of Muslims, their religion and sense of cultural identity are so closely bound that an attack upon their faith is, to all intents and purposes, an attack upon their person. |
Never could this guy be so accurate. I completely agree with that statement. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
So, because some muslims are poor and frustrated, we should all allow ourselves to be threatened into living by their religious beliefs? Are you fvcking kidding me? What kind of an argument is this? |
Yup thats how they think - they make the same argument when the poor and fustrated go blow something up or behead some nice person.
The reality is they are poor and fustrated because they lack liberty. But they don't comprehend this yet.
Unfortunately, as someone alluded previously in this thread, the middle eastern populaces are like a spoiled child - they are immature, uneducated, and get much of what they want just by screaming and fussing.
Its a higher than thou attitude, but in this regard, I believe its right: Its the world's job as parent to make sure it doesn't given into these childest demands, the world knows best. Just like when you grew up you rebeled and you were disciplined, and looking back at it you realize how your parents were right and you were wrong, the world must take a similar attitude with the worldophobic islamist, stcik to our principles.
One day, the islamist world will grow up, realize the principles between our strong hand, and thank us (just like the many that today thanks us after they were oppressed under communism several decades back and west refused to cave in). |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by stevieboy32808
Never could this guy be so accurate. I completely agree with that statement. |
That was scary when I read your signature after reading the posts above I thought your signature read "Progressive Fundamentalists" :nervous:
:p |
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| trancaholic |
The Danish embassy in Syria has been burned to the ground. The Swedish one is in flames too.
The moderate muslims of Denmark, spearheaded by Khader, have condemned the burnings unconditionally.
EDIT: Apparently, the Norwegian embassy has been "attacked too". Also, the reason for torching the Danish one, would seemingly be a series of text messages circulating earlier in the day among Syrians, in which it said that Danes would gather in Copenhagen and burn copies of the Quran.:rolleyes:
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
There's one more thing about that Guardian article that was misrepresented, and I think you missed it. |
Yup. My bad.
EDIT2: South African press has just been gagged by the courts.
| quote: | South African court bans publication of Mohammed cartoons
A South African court has banned the publication of controversial cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed in the country's newspapers at the request of a Muslim organisation to cries of censorship from the media.
In a ruling issued late Friday, Johannesburg's high court banned main press groups from publishing the cartoons which since appearing in European newspapers have caused uproar in the Muslim world, Ebrahim Bham, the spokesman of the Council of Muslim Theologians said.
"We went to court because (...) these cartoons and caricature of the Prophet Mohammed are well known to cause deep offence to Muslims throughout the world," Bham said.
"It has offended the religious sensitivities of Muslims. So we took whatever step we could to see if we could prevent that particular type of thing happening in South Africa."
The row over cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed, first published in a Danish newspaper and reproduced first in European newspapers and as far away as New Zealand, has taken on an international dimension, drawing new cultural battle lines over freedom of speech and religious tolerance.
South Africa's press said it would challenge the court decision.
Mondli Makhanya, editor of the Sunday Times, told AFP the court decision affected "basically all English language newspapers in South Africa".
He said his newspaper was against the ban "on the basis of principle because we said that we were not willing to have any outside pressure group edit our newspaper for us".
Earlier he was quoted by the SAPA news agency as saying his group regard the ban as "a serious blow to the freedom of the press and have every intention of challenging the ruling when the matter returns to court".
He said he had been asked by the Muslim group to undertake not to reproduce the cartoons but had refused.
"We believe that if we were to have given an undertaking not to publish, we would invite similar demands and threats from anyone who felt offended by the stories we publish," he said.
"No credible newspaper can be held to ransom by the beliefs of a section of a population."
Joe Thloloe, the chairman of the South African National Editors' Forum (SANEF), described the ban as "alarming and amounts to pre-publication censorship".
"It limits freedom of expression in that the decision on whether to publish or not to publish has been taken away from the editors and placed on the shoulders of the court".
The controversial cartoons, one of which shows the Prophet Mohammed with a bomb-shaped turban, have enraged the Arab and Muslim world because Islamic tradition bans depictions of the Prophet and Allah as blasphemous. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
The Danish embassy in Syria has been burned to the ground. The Swedish one is in flames too. |
Jesus....these people really don't have any concept of freedom of speech do they? /obvious... |
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| Fir3start3r |
Ironic Photo of the Day
[EDIT]
Sorry, forgot the caption...
| quote: |
Caption: A Jordanian Muslim woman poses with a received message on her mobile phone saying ‘If we keep boycotting Danish Products till next summer they will lose at least 36 billion EURO’, in Amman Jordan, Febuary 1, 2006. A French newspaper reprinted on Wednesday a series of 12 Danish newspaper cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammad that have sparked protests in the Muslim world and prompted Saudi Arabia to recall its ambassador from Denmark. REUTERS/Ali Jarekji
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