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Jihad on Denmark - freedom of expression rears its ugly head once again... (pg. 19)
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| RebeL9 |
Just answer this question:
Why are publishing of jewish cartoons with greedy jews seen as a provocation and threat against a ethnic group but publishing pictures which shows all muslims as terrorists seen as expressing of freedom of speech? |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by RebeL9
Just answer this question:
Why are publishing of jewish cartoons with greedy jews seen as a provocation and threat against a ethnic group but publishing pictures which shows all muslims as terrorists seen as expressing of freedom of speech? |
Oh boy. Well, the answer was an entire five posts above you - no wonder you couldn't see it.
And stop dragging the Jews into this - they're quite capable of doing that themselves. |
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| Ian |
| quote: | Originally posted by RebeL9
Just answer this question:
Why are publishing of jewish cartoons with greedy jews seen as a provocation and threat against a ethnic group but publishing pictures which shows all muslims as terrorists seen as expressing of freedom of speech? |
I honestly don't know mate, but I think there needs to be more understanding & friendship between the 2 religions. I believe you're muslim & I was born into christianity, yet we share common interests like the music, which to me unites people who are different and never are you or I looked down upon beacause of what religions we were born into. There is a need for an international cease fire imo but I don't see it happening.
| quote: | Originally posted by djdarren
lol so you are so modern that nobody is getting killed in your country? lol.. and english footbal fans was so modern that they put our national flag into their boxers and walk like that. english people was so modern that they were banned from europen competitions once. english people were so modern that their goddamn police kill an unarmed and innocent man in metro station. americans are so mdoern that they keep killing innocent people in Iraq.
Ok then it is modern right? |
ok. to answer this in parts.
English fans are way better behaved nowadays, the bad behaviour was in a previous generation & Our country is doing everything we can to stop these people from going abroad to cause problems. However anywhere in eastern europe, our black players recieve awful monkey noises. This is the 21st century and that is out of order.
The Iraq situation is unfortunate. There will always be casualties in conflict, and the UK went in hoping to liberate the Iraqi people, let's not forget saddam was butchering his own people, and some of the opposite factiosn of muslims were treated so badly by him all the time. Every person deserves the chance to be free, and the UK truly wants that, if America has ulterior issues, that's upto them, but if you ask anyone in the UK if they want Iraqi's killed they'd say no, we just want to give those people a chance of a life, the chance to prosper.
Take for example the earthquake in pakistan, the UK & America & scandinavian countries gave money first, they always do, we believe in compassion regardless of race, religion, anything. Sadly there are people manipulating on all sides, which causes these problems. The danish person who published this was wrong, should've apologised, that should've been the end of it. Now god knows what is going to happen. |
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| emc^2 |
There's another cartoon circulating around: it shows a group of suicide bombers trying to enter heaven and the prophet saying: "There are no more virgins left." - now that's LOL! :stongue:
| quote: | many critics charge that anti-Semitic cartoons are rampant in the Muslim world. In addition, Westerners see horrifying images of people like kidnapped reporter Jill Carroll pleading for her life or the death of Nicholas Berg, a young contractor who was beheaded by his captors in Iraq.
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| quote: | | A European Muslim group has already published on its Web site a cartoon of Adolf Hitler in bed with Anne Frank. "If it is the time to break taboos and cross all the red lines," it explains, "we certainly do not want to fall behind." |
Link
Interesting how muslims never miss an opportunity to pull Jews into conflict, even when Jews are not responsible.:rolleyes: |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Which is it? As you're obviously speaking on behalf of all Muslims, you might as well tell us if we should fear Muslims or not? |
Welcome to Muslim double-talk ;)
| quote: |
A paper in Australia and a larger US paper has also just printed some cartoons. A list of freedom of speech fighting papers can be found at wikipedia. |
Oh good! I was wondering when a US paper was going to join in on the fun - since there are hundreds of US papers...
| quote: |
Yesterday, in an interview with Jyllands-posten, the US deputy foreign secretary came out with a new US stance on the matter. He pledged to support Denmark in this matter unconditionally. The US embassador to Denmark furthermore added that the previous statements by the US foreign secretary's spokesman were in error, and did not reflect the policies of the US government. Supposedly the same kinds of new pipings was given by Blair. |
This makes sense. I think the general sense is that the US was misinformed over this whole incident and never grasped it (till now I guess) completely. Freedom of press is so ingrained in US society that it is no big deal to draw Mohammad here, Jesus raping a girl, or a Jew thirsting over world domination.
Therefore when its not such a big deal, drawing a cartoon of Mohammaed as a terrorist like drawing a Jew thirsting over the world, Americans saw as trying to intice hatered in racism.
Now, however, as the administration finally grasped the reality, in which it is a big deal to draw Mohammed, and this came from a liberal paper, not some racial rag, and was intended as a pure and obvious (unlike the European Arab Leagues attempt to just use this incident to poke more fun at the Jews) form of exercising free speech, I don't think the USA can take a different line.
Afterall, the editor did not tell his cartoonist what to draw, this is what they drew! Censoring that is well, censoring it. There are some pretty tame (and pointless) cartoons in there... one only could be construed as offensive, but when you listen to what its author intended it to be (Islamist hijacking mohammaed as their spokesperson for terror) its a very valid critique. |
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| Groundhog Boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by djdarren
lol..this is really funny. First of all you really don't know what is Jihad. I'm muslim btw. Jihad is a very old idea, people in europe and america who have benefits over Muslim countries uses the idea Jihad to just try to blacken muslims. You said that there are lots of muslims who want a religious war. Thats compeletly wrong. All that bombings and stuff is not about religion or muslims. You must understand that no muslim can do such a thing. You said they commit all these atrocities in the name of Allah and this is the funniest part. They don't know nothing about Allah or being a Muslim. They are just couple of ignorant people.
you must understand that all thse things are not about being a Muslim.
And let's talk about that cartoons. Hmm.. Let's see.. How can you make all Muslims responsible for these atrocities? How can you draw Mohammed the Prophet in such idea? What if we draw Jesus "as a symbol of US" in a cartoon? That is absolutely the same thing. They are just trying to find reasons to attack Muslims.They want to conquer our land to use all our products. But one thing they don't know that we are very powerful. If they keep doing this... well.. |
Do you really mean to tell me that these Muslim fundamentalists don't commit terrrorist acts in the name of Allah? Because if you are, you're either living in a cave or everything that is written worldwide about terrorism is completely wrong.
As for your Jihad comments and how my interpretation of it was incorrect, please give me a different definition than this one
| quote: | Jihad (Arabic: جهاد jihād) is an Islamic term, from the Arabic root jhd ("to exert utmost effort, to strive, struggle"), which connotes a wide range of meanings: anything from an inward spiritual struggle to attain perfect faith to a political or militant struggle to defend or further Islam. Jihad is repeatedly used in the context of Holy War by Islamic militants and some religious leaders throughout the Middle East [1]. Some Muslims consider jihad to be the most misunderstood aspect of their religion by non-Muslims [2]. The Islamic religious legitimacy of the goals or methods of various Islamist movements who adopt the terminology of jihad is often brought into question, usually by moderate and liberal Muslims.
In much of the English speaking world, jihad is associated with the phrase "holy war"; however, the concept of jihad encompasses more than just warfare, and a more accurate translation probably would be "holy struggle", "righteous struggle" or "holy endeavour". The denotation is of a challenging or difficult, (frequently) opposed effort, made either in accomplishment or resistance.
A person who engages in any form of jihad is called a "mujahid", meaning "striver" or "struggler". This term is most often used to mean a person who engages in fighting, but, for example a Muslim struggling to memorize the Qur'an is called a mujahid. The neologism jihadist is sometimes used to describe militant Islamic groups.
Muslims generally classify jihad into two forms,jihad al-akbar, the greater jihad, is said to be the struggle against one's soul (nafs), while jihad al-asgar, the lesser jihad, is external and is in reference to physical effort and/or fighting .
Muslim scholars explained there are five kinds of jihad fi sabilillah (struggle in the cause of God). |
- Source
Now I have no problem with a lot of the concepts in here. Internal stuggle with your soul is a great thing. External struggle and imposing your beliefs on others through whatever means is not. If Muslim radicals didn't use these terms constantly to refer to their actions, maybe it wouldn't get misinterpretted by the West.
You said that these actions aren't about religion or Muslims? Please explain to me what they are about then, because the only thing that I see and hear from those who take responsibility relates to their religious beliefs. You can say that a lot of it is political, but that gets difficult to determine when religion and politics are so inter-twined in a good part of the Middle East.
OK, the the Danes wanted their products? Are you joking? They stayed out of this whole mess the US and some other Europeans started in Iraq. So they drew some cartoons depicting Mohammed and you're not allowed to draw him according to your religion. Why should those who don't follow your religion conform to it's principles? The whole point of this issue is the self-censorship that's already going on in Europe and showing how far everyone's already gone to appease Muslims by conforming so much to their beliefs that they're giving up their own ideals (free speech).
Lastly, the thing that really pisses me off about this whole thing is how the Muslim radicals who started this whole mess by spreading these cartoons throughout the Muslim community LIED to the Muslims and included cartoons that weren't published to make the Europeans seem even more demonic. The cartoons that they created, with the praying Muslim being raped by a dog, Mohammed with a pig snout, and Muhammed as a pedophile demon, were offensive. Muslims have a lot more right to complain about them, and if they were real, I'd understand the reaction a bit more. Still, burning down embassies? |
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| HardTranceProd |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Freedom of press is so ingrained in US society that it is no big deal to draw Mohammad here, Jesus raping a girl, or a Jew thirsting over world domination.
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I think you're wrong about this one. |
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | | Islam (Arabic: الإسلام; al-islām (listen (help·info)), "the submission to the will of God") is a monotheistic faith, one of the Abrahamic religions, the world's second-largest religion, and the fastest growing religion in the world. A lot muslims (like islamists) and non-muslims hold that islam is not only a religion, but also a political system that should govern the legal, economic and social imperatives of the state. |
Wiki
Now, Islam as a political entity paints a pretty picture, based on its recent actions, eh? Democracy, you say? My a$$. These people couldn't tell it, even if democracy sat on their face. Shame on Bush for wasting crap load of money on a war fought in a wrong country. Iraq should have been left alone, Iran should have been targeted first. I bet Saddam would have even helped along.
but nice of Bushie to make his daddy proud. Anyway, coming back to my point - the craziness has got to stop. If these people do not wish to solidify the image of Islam as religion of hate, murder, extremism - they need to chill the f0ck out.
Parting shot: Islam is relatively the youngest religion - it's only about 1400 years old. Remember what was going on with Christianity at sweet 1400? That's right - the inquisition, dark ages, etc. So, I figure in about 600 or so years, Islam should catch on with today's standards and realize that loping people's heads of or blowing up buildings and people is just a bad PR and tends to upset few folks here and there. In about 200 years we may hopefully begin to witness the age of Islamic Renaissance. Worst case scanario prognosis - 600 or so years is not that long to wait for a good thing, eh? :rolleyes: |
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| Groundhog Boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
There's another cartoon circulating around: it shows a group of suicide bombers trying to enter heaven and the prophet saying: "There are no more virgins left." - now that's LOL! :stongue:
| quote: | | A European Muslim group has already published on its Web site a cartoon of Adolf Hitler in bed with Anne Frank. "If it is the time to break taboos and cross all the red lines," it explains, "we certainly do not want to fall behind." |
Link
Interesting how muslims never miss an opportunity to pull Jews into conflict, even when Jews are not responsible.:rolleyes: |
But notice how the Jews all over the world are offended, but they aren't burning embassies, rioting, and boycotting entire countries.
Also, Anne Frank is a symbol of something harmful that was wrong to them, Mohammed with a bomb-like turban is a symbol of what significant segment of the Muslim population (significant = not all, but a visible, powerful, vocal segment) is doing to the rest of the world. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| Djdarren, I see you haven't really read any of the discussion mentioned earlier and immediately came to respond to the last few posts. The problem with the whole situation is not that the muslims shouldn't feel offended or have a right to protest and boycot danish goods, the problem is that they're really taking things way too far by burning embassies and calling for mass murders in Europe. The second thing here is that I really don't recall you guys being very upset about the demolition of those two huge Buddha statues in Afghanistan. Remember those? Where was muslim outrage about religious tolerance then? |
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| Groundhog Boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
Parting shot: Islam is relatively the youngest religion - it's only about 1400 years old. Remember what was going on with Christianity at sweet 1400? That's right - the inquisition, dark ages, etc. So, I figure in about 600 or so years, Islam should catch on with today's standards and realize that loping people's heads of or blowing up buildings and people is just a bad PR and tends to upset few folks here and there. In about 200 years we may hopefully begin to witness the age of Islamic Renaissance. Worst case scanario prognosis - 600 or so years is not that long to wait for a good thing, eh? :rolleyes: |
I've actually commented on this to a bunch of people when talking about world politics and what's going on the middle east. It's just too bad that they didn't learn from Christianity's mistakes. |
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| HardTranceProd |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
There's one more thing about that Guardian article that was misrepresented, and I think you missed it. One more big difference between anti-jewish cartoons and these caricatures is that these are not state sponsored and therefore have as much to do with the state of Denmark as those freaks in London had to do with UK. |
You make a very good point. |
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