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Jihad on Denmark - freedom of expression rears its ugly head once again... (pg. 37)
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| qussay |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
It happened in Austria, which besides the name, has little resemblance to Australia. As has already been pointed out, Austria is one of the countries with laws against holocaust denial, so I'm not really sure what to take home from your post? However, it does appear that even in this regard I'm better informed than you. Just for closure, though, assuming that your assertion made sense - and *Australia* had laws against holocaust denial - how would that relate to what's printed in an independent *danish* newspaper? Do you think that this paper is somehow deciding the laws in Austria/Australia? |
Regardless of the country at hand here , which is like you ( o well informed one ) stated , is indeed austria .
If you recall , the argument went towards the freedom of speech in europe as a whole , vs how the middle east should react towards the cartoon issue. Which leads us to free speech in countries where the issue of the holocaust cannot be questioned !
A non-muslim , would never understand what Prophet Mohammad represents to a true muslim. It is far beyond anything you can comprehend. So , by mocking him , and illustrating him in newspaper cartoons , you have triggered rage in alot of people's hearts . So when certain countries react by boycotting dansih products , its their OWN way of representing freedom of choice , and speech . YOU of all people should understand that they DO have a choice, and its their right to do so ! So dont complain when sales of certain dansih companys plunged ! We never wanted this to begin with ! |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
Regardless of the country at hand here , which is like you ( o well informed one ) stated , is indeed austria .
If you recall , the argument went towards the freedom of speech in europe as a whole , vs how the middle east should react towards the cartoon issue. Which leads us to free speech in countries where the issue of the holocaust cannot be questioned !
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Ehh, no. The issue wasn't about freedom of speech in Europe vs. how the Middle East has reacted. First, it makes no more sense to talk about freedom of speech in Europe than about the temperature in Africa; and second, there's no conflict to build the "vs." on. The issues being debated is whether freedom of speech, in countries where it exists, should be curbed to make sure religious people are never offended, and whether Muslims should be allowed to impose their value system on non-Muslims. I think most people have pretty similar views on the concrete reactions in the Middle East (burning embassies and killing people: wrong - burning flags and butter and boycotting: ok).
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
A non-muslim , would never understand what Prophet Mohammad represents to a true muslim. It is far beyond anything you can comprehend. So , by mocking him , and illustrating him in newspaper cartoons , you have triggered rage in alot of people's hearts . So when certain countries react by boycotting dansih products , its their OWN way of representing freedom of choice , and speech . YOU of all people should understand that they DO have a choice, and its their right to do so ! So dont complain when sales of certain dansih companys plunged ! We never wanted this to begin with ! |
"As a Muslim you would never understand how insignificant your prophet is to us non-Muslims. It is far beyond anything you can comprehend."
I do understand your rights to buy and not-buy the products you like, and I do support those rights. If you had cared to read the thread you would have known this. However, even if I support your right to boycot whatever you like, that doesn't mean that I sympathize with your choice. In the case of the Danish goods, I find your boycot retarded, pathetic, and unfair (just as you may consider the publication of the drawings), yet I do support your right to do it. Similarly, I support the right of every paper in the world to print whatever it likes, without having to fear death threats from foreign cave men, and I support the right of the West to do with its money what it likes. Specifically, I support the right to not waste any more money by helping the Middle East. |
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| qussay |
I never said it is ok to kill people , and distribute death threats , this is the opposite of what the REAL islam is all about ! I wouldnt expect you to understand that ...
I am not saying countries with so called free speech should bend their way of thinking as not to offend religious muslims. But , since those countries are so advanced and prosperous , the consequences of such actions should be taken into consideration. When you print such cartoons , at the end of the day , it doesnt have any value , it doesnt make that country stronger and it doesnt promote a more " free speech " environment !
However, this act does mean alot to muslims , and will offend the majority of muslims world wide (but does not give any excuse to kill or vandalize ). It might also create problems with countries as a whole , governments, firms, organizations , and so on. while on the other hand the cartoons might merely make some people laugh! So taking that into consideration , i think people should pause and think for a while , before taking such actions !
No one asked you to sympathize with any choice we make . I think boycotting danish products is the right thing to do, so it demonstrate that the cartoons dont just offend individual muslims , but countries as a whole !
I dont expect you to understand the importance or our prophet ( peace be upon him ) , thats why i mentioned it ....:rolleyes:
I also wish they would stop " wasting " money on the middle east like you said, But that also means that they leave us alone , and dont run around craving our natural resources , creating scenarios just to have presence in the region ..... !!!!!
But i bet you they cant handle the thought of that . |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
I never said it is ok to kill people , and distribute death threats , this is the opposite of what the REAL islam is all about ! I wouldnt expect you to understand that ... |
I do understand, and I don't say that you think it is ok to kill or vandalize, I just tried to sum up the thread for you.
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
I am not saying countries with so called free speech should bend their way of thinking as not to offend religious muslims. But , since those countries are so advanced and prosperous , the consequences of such actions should be taken into consideration. When you print such cartoons , at the end of the day , it doesnt have any value , it doesnt make that country stronger and it doesnt promote a more " free speech " environment ! |
The problem with this reasoning, is that the publication wasn't intended to be an international event. It was part of a domestic debate, and imams from Denmark, decided to pep it up by involving the rest of the Muslim world. If you read the thread you'll see how the debate evolved from being a purely Danish debate, into the hysteria in the end.
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
However, this act does mean alot to muslims , and will offend the majority of muslims world wide (but does not give any excuse to kill or vandalize ). It might also create problems with countries as a whole , governments, firms, organizations , and so on. while on the other hand the cartoons might merely make some people laugh! So taking that into consideration , i think people should pause and think for a while , before taking such actions ! |
Well, you see, when your parliament refuse to stricten laws for honour killings, when your courts refuse to reunite Siham Qandah with her kids, and when Jordanians hail Zarqawi, then I feel offended as a secularist. However, I do understand that these acts are not carried out in order to offend me. And I do not expect Jordanians to base their lives on my whims. In return I would like the same understanding from Jordanians.
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
I also wish they would stop " wasting " money on the middle east like you said, But that also means that they leave us alone , and dont run around craving our natural resources , creating scenarios just to have presence in the region ..... !!!!!
But i bet you they cant handle the thought of that . |
I agree completely. |
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| qussay |
Regarding honour killings, alot is already going on in the country to change the laws , and the good news is that Queen Rania herslef is leading this change . However , you must understand that some Jordanians still have the old/uninformed mentality , so this will take time , but it will change eventually.
Siham Qandah was reunited with her kids on April 14th, 2005 , and her husbands brother was ordered by the court to re-pay the amount he withdrew from his nephew's trust fund . !More Info
You say "Jordanians hail zarqawi. " Thats not true , maybe some of them think this way , but the majority dont. and if you check the news (not obvious sources), around 4 government officials who stood against zarqawi's death , have now been taken to jail for questioning, and so many people marched to oppose those official's statements and actions ! More Info
Again , maybe the media didnt cover these stories , be it intentional or not , there is no reason , for ANYONE to get offended ! On the contrary , i think this is, and should be an example to people who depend on the media , to form their views of the middle east
edit : i dont think you can compare the cartoon issue with any of the the mentioned above! They are very different !
You cant write or draw something about a certain group of people and say it was not intended for them, information travels very fast these days , and sooner or later , people will know ! |
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| Groundhog Boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
edit : i dont think you can compare the cartoon issue with any of the the mentioned above! They are very different ! |
You're right, they are very different and you can't compare them. One is a cartoon, the above involves real people. Geez, maybe it's a cultural thing, but I know which one I take more offense from.
Speaking of which, I personally found the Zarqawi beheadings pretty offensive, but that didn't cause me to burn down embassies or mosques. This is the sort of thing that causes the outrage from our side of things because there is no basis for violence like that.
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
A non-muslim , would never understand what Prophet Mohammad represents to a true muslim. It is far beyond anything you can comprehend. So , by mocking him , and illustrating him in newspaper cartoons , you have triggered rage in alot of people's hearts . So when certain countries react by boycotting dansih products , its their OWN way of representing freedom of choice , and speech . YOU of all people should understand that they DO have a choice, and its their right to do so ! So dont complain when sales of certain dansih companys plunged ! We never wanted this to begin with ! |
I'm not religious now, but when I was a kid, I was and my parents still are. This comment is so incredibly arrogant it blows my mind. Please explain to me how the prophet Mohammad is more important to you as a Muslim than Jesus is to a Christian, Abraham is to a Jew, Buddha is to a Buddhist, etc. LOTS of people understand what he represents to you, because they have a similar person in their life that they worship and follow.
Also, while I could care less if you, personally, choose to boycott items from countries, I'm opposed to government blocking the import of these prodcuts. I disagree with the USA's boycott on Cuban products. Allow people to make their own decisions as to whether they feel these cartoons warrant economic retaliation, don't make the decision for them, because not everyone agrees.
Lastly, I'd just like to add that I wish we'd stay out of your countries, too. We might want your natural resources, but your people have no problem selling them, so they're just as to blame. I just wish we'd ignore you politically, because it's pretty obvious that we're so far apart culturally, that I don't understand how anyone expects a similar political system to work. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
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i am not saying either , but i stil should have the right to question it , since you are saying we must have unrestricted freedom of speech . People shouldnt go to jail because they question if it happened or not , freedom of speech should give them the right to say whatever they want .... ! |
There a fine line between questioning and slandering the truth though.
Questioning is fine, but let's not presume ignorance as fact and then try and defend that either. |
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| qussay |
| quote: | Originally posted by Groundhog Boy
You're right, they are very different and you can't compare them. One is a cartoon, the above involves real people. Geez, maybe it's a cultural thing, but I know which one I take more offense from.
Speaking of which, I personally found the Zarqawi beheadings pretty offensive, but that didn't cause me to burn down embassies or mosques. This is the sort of thing that causes the outrage from our side of things because there is no basis for violence like that.
I'm not religious now, but when I was a kid, I was and my parents still are. This comment is so incredibly arrogant it blows my mind. Please explain to me how the prophet Mohammad is more important to you as a Muslim than Jesus is to a Christian, Abraham is to a Jew, Buddha is to a Buddhist, etc. LOTS of people understand what he represents to you, because they have a similar person in their life that they worship and follow.
Also, while I could care less if you, personally, choose to boycott items from countries, I'm opposed to government blocking the import of these prodcuts. I disagree with the USA's boycott on Cuban products. Allow people to make their own decisions as to whether they feel these cartoons warrant economic retaliation, don't make the decision for them, because not everyone agrees.
Lastly, I'd just like to add that I wish we'd stay out of your countries, too. We might want your natural resources, but your people have no problem selling them, so they're just as to blame. I just wish we'd ignore you politically, because it's pretty obvious that we're so far apart culturally, that I don't understand how anyone expects a similar political system to work. |
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By Saying that , you clearly deomonstrated to me , that you dont know what Prohoet Mohammad ( PBUH ) means to a true muslim !
Prohets are not REGULAR men , and they shouldnt be treated as such ! The Quran stresses on the good manners and respect issue , and when Prohpet Mohammad was asked what his majore message and teaching to this world is , he said to show and teach people good manners and respect , through islam of course ( not saying that muslims are the only people with good manners )
We , as muslims , dont have pictures , drawings , or any other clear illusrtations of Prohet Mohammad ( PBUH ) , regardless of the reasons. why should a newspaper that has nothing to do with islam , print such OFFENSIVE cartoons ????
In our societies , we dont mock ANY of the prophets, its the total oppostie of what islam is . However , sadly today , it has become acceptable to do so , just to excercise our right of free speech and show the world how " civilized " our societies are ! Is it ok do forget what those prophets represent to billions of people , just so you dont feel " restrained and limited " to what you can print or say ...?
Not one middle eastern country boycotted any European products, the kept them in the market , and the people THEMSELVES chose not to buy them ! ( Avoiding to comment on your " i would care less remark " since i do belive in good manners ... )
You should know that law makers , politicians , and ruling royal families almost never represent what the people's will and way of thinking is. Maybe we are too far apart culturly , but still that isnt enough reason for the west to stay away( and i aslo wish you would ingore us in every way you can......) From day one , the west wanted presence in this region , claiming we are " uncapable of democratic and civilized self rule .... " :rolleyes:
edit : i never supported the burning down and destruction of mosques and buildings, nor the death threats distributed after this issue , and regrding ANY other issue ! |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
Regarding honour killings, alot is already going on in the country to change the laws , and the good news is that Queen Rania herslef is leading this change . However , you must understand that some Jordanians still have the old/uninformed mentality , so this will take time , but it will change eventually.
Siham Qandah was reunited with her kids on April 14th, 2005 , and her husbands brother was ordered by the court to re-pay the amount he withdrew from his nephew's trust fund . !More Info
You say "Jordanians hail zarqawi. " Thats not true , maybe some of them think this way , but the majority dont. and if you check the news (not obvious sources), around 4 government officials who stood against zarqawi's death , have now been taken to jail for questioning, and so many people marched to oppose those official's statements and actions ! More Info
Again , maybe the media didnt cover these stories , be it intentional or not , there is no reason , for ANYONE to get offended ! On the contrary , i think this is, and should be an example to people who depend on the media , to form their views of the middle east
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I appreciate that you've taken the trouble of updating me on these stories. I wasn't aware that those government officials had been taken in for questioning. Anyway, it is all besides the point. The point was that some of your ways offend me, but that I realize that you do not have these ways just to offend me, just like the cartoons offend you, yet they were not meant to offend you. That later some of my issues with your ways have been addressed is irrelevant to that point. Just as the apology from Jyllandsposten is irrelevant.
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
edit : i dont think you can compare the cartoon issue with any of the the mentioned above! They are very different ! |
I agree fully with Groundhog Boy here. In fact I read an opinion piece lately which described the situation quite accurately:
| quote: | | Although it may sound absurd to Americans, those rather innocent cartoons may have done more to open the eyes of Europeans to the Islamic threat than the terror attacks of 9/11, the London and Madrid bombings combined. People who can burn down embassies because of something so silly quite simply don't have anything at all in common with us, and cannot function in our democratic societies. |
(Source )
The rest of piece is crap, and the wording is a bit off IMO, but I've heard lots of people describing the fallout as "an eye opener". |
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| qussay |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
I agree fully with Groundhog Boy here. In fact I read an opinion piece lately which described the situation quite accurately:
(Source )
The rest of piece is crap, and the wording is a bit off IMO, but I've heard lots of people describing the fallout as "an eye opener". |
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Any act of violence , and/or destruction i oppose , but to say , that you want an open minded society , where free speech is a must , and then when muslims in such societies speak up and excercise this right, by saying that they are against such offensive cartoons ..... well ....
You form such a generalized assumption , that after what a minor group of people did , all arab/muslim immigrants living in the west " cannot function in such democratic societies " is really going over board ! |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
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Any act of violence , and/or destruction i oppose , but to say , that you want an open minded society , where free speech is a must , and then when muslims in such societies speak up and excercise this right, by saying that they are against such offensive cartoons ..... well ....
You form such a generalized assumption , that after what a minor group of people did , all arab/muslim immigrants living in the west " cannot function in such democratic societies " is really going over board ! |
What is this? Day of the misrepresentations? I never said that "all arab/muslim immigrants cannot function in democratic societies" - as a matter of fact I know quite a lot that function quite well. I'm saying that people
- who expect everyone else to follow their religious dogma,
- who fail to understand the concept of separation of media and government,
- who understands the world as mainly a tribal battle, or
- who replies to cartoons with death threats and/or violence, cannot function in a secular democratic society. And contrary to previously, I'm leaning towards thinking that we, in secular democraties, should simply accept that such people exist and start preventing their numbers from growing, rather than keep excusing the difference, as if our own perception is somehow the natural point of view, and given enough time and nice words anybody will see the light eventually.
Also, I never said that Muslims aren't allowed to be angry, and demonstrate their anger through peaceful means. That I reserve the right to label some kinds of angers "retarded" is my right, as long as I state my opinion without resorting to violence or threats. |
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| Groundhog Boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by qussay
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By Saying that , you clearly deomonstrated to me , that you dont know what Prohoet Mohammad ( PBUH ) means to a true muslim !
Prohets are not REGULAR men , and they shouldnt be treated as such ! The Quran stresses on the good manners and respect issue , and when Prohpet Mohammad was asked what his majore message and teaching to this world is , he said to show and teach people good manners and respect , through islam of course ( not saying that muslims are the only people with good manners )
We , as muslims , dont have pictures , drawings , or any other clear illusrtations of Prohet Mohammad ( PBUH ) , regardless of the reasons. why should a newspaper that has nothing to do with islam , print such OFFENSIVE cartoons ????
In our societies , we dont mock ANY of the prophets, its the total oppostie of what islam is . However , sadly today , it has become acceptable to do so , just to excercise our right of free speech and show the world how " civilized " our societies are ! Is it ok do forget what those prophets represent to billions of people , just so you dont feel " restrained and limited " to what you can print or say ...?
Not one middle eastern country boycotted any European products, the kept them in the market , and the people THEMSELVES chose not to buy them ! ( Avoiding to comment on your " i would care less remark " since i do belive in good manners ... )
You should know that law makers , politicians , and ruling royal families almost never represent what the people's will and way of thinking is. Maybe we are too far apart culturly , but still that isnt enough reason for the west to stay away( and i aslo wish you would ingore us in every way you can......) From day one , the west wanted presence in this region , claiming we are " uncapable of democratic and civilized self rule .... " :rolleyes:
edit : i never supported the burning down and destruction of mosques and buildings, nor the death threats distributed after this issue , and regrding ANY other issue ! |
And by replying as you did, you showed that you don't understand what the central figures of other religions mean to their followers and put yours on a pillar.
One of the things I've always hated about religion is how followers of one religion have the nerve to criticize followers of another relgion as not being as pious and how they view theirs to be "right" and the others as inferior. You might as well have literally said "My prophet is greater than yours, so you can't criticize him."
There's a lot of people in the US and Europe that if they saw some cartoon that depicted, say Jesus, in a negative way that would be offended. Some would be driven to protests, too. It's really not that different. The difference is that religion doesn't run our society here, which is the major difference between the Middle East and the Western cultures in my eyes. I alredy think religion runs TOO MUCH of the US politics, and I shudder to think what it'd be like if I lived in one of your countries where religious figures dictate what's legal and what's not. I hate when religion is legislated by governments, and that's exactly what happens in your countries.
BTW, I'm not saying that Muslims can't survive in a democracy, but isn't it a bit difficult to have democracy, a government run by the people, when your laws are dictated by books and religious figureheads?? This is why relgion isn't supposed to be part of our political system in the US. You can live by your own religious code in your personal life all that you want, but don't expect me to follow it if I don't believe in your religion.
Lastly, to trancaholic, this incident was a huge "eye opener" for me. It showed just how brainwashed by religion too many Muslims from these countries are. I'm not saying it's all of them, far from it, but it's damn hard to discount their presence and influence when there are 10s (even 100s) of thousands burning and rioting in the streets over some drawings.
The Da Vinci Code, a work of fiction, was met with a lot of protest world-wide from Christians, but did I somehow miss the burning of embassies or even movie theaters?? I may have, but I don't think that happened anywhere, did it? I think the closest they got was considering Dan Brown effigy-burning. That book completely mocked the notion of Jesus as a virgin, a tenant that Catholic's rely on to keep their priests celibate. I fear what would happen if a analogous situation happened in Muslim culture. Oh wait, it already kind of did with Salman Rushdie and "The Satanic Verses"... |
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