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Jihad on Denmark - freedom of expression rears its ugly head once again... (pg. 16)
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| donnybrasco |
| quote: | Originally posted by InterMilan31
is it just me or does anything they dont like result to violent acts |
:haha: Sure seems that way! |
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| DaveSZ |
Free speech is about the freedom to offend and be offended.
It's the mark of a healthy society.
I read editorial cartoons in the paper that offend me all the time, but I don't burn down embassies over it.
This whole episode really brings to light how deeply entrenched fundamentalism is in many predominantly Muslim countries and how much a threat fundamentalism is to all free people across the globe in our modern world without borders.
It also brings into clear view the absolute naiveté, and foolishness of the neocon plan to impose democracy on the Muslim world that is Iraq.
And to those who apologize for offending others by exercising free speech (this includes President Clinton), I say, "Shame on you." |
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| NeoPhono |
...and the first death related to the cartoons occurs...
Link to full Story
| quote: | Reuters and The Associated Press reported that a man demonstrating against the cartoons had been shot dead by police after he shot at them.
Four others were reportedly injured in the clashes, after protestors threw stones and knives at the police. |
| quote: | | The protests soon escalated into fights between Muslims and Christians, and some protesters threw rocks at a Maronite Catholic church, bringing back memories of the civil war that once gripped the capital. |
:nervous: |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by NeoPhono
...and the first death related to the cartoons occurs...
Link to full Story
:nervous: |
I really can't say I harbor anything but positive feelings considering the guy who died was a moron who started shooting at the police. All over a stupid cartoon. Good riddance, one idiot less in the world. |
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| Genesis Evolved |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Good riddance, one idiot less in the world. |
Indeed :rolleyes:
On a sidenote, I find it somewhat odd that our allies, the UK and the US, have showed so little backing on this matter. Kudos to our Prime Minister for not crumbling under pressure. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ian
I totally sympathise with your plight, I have nothing but love for denmark, its footballers, some ta members from there, and the beautiful pork products you produce, we should be sticking by you, as we'd expect you to for us. Sadly there's way too many extremeists who can get into the uk so easily, meaning nobody in power will come out in support in fear. |
This is probably the saddest post of the thread. It connects brilliantly with the following report
| quote: | No.10 backs cartoon protests action
The behaviour of some Muslim demonstrators in London over the last few days was "completely unacceptable", Downing Street said in a statement.
No.10 said the police would have the Government's full support in any actions they wished to take as a result of the demonstrations outside the Danish Embassy in London, protesting against the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammed in a Danish newspaper.
But Prime Minister Tony Blair's spokesman stressed it was for the police and the Crown Prosecution Service to decide whether arrests or prosecutions were justified.
No.10 also strongly welcomed statements by Muslim leaders in Britain condemning the protesters for carrying threats of death against those who had published the cartoons. |
Notice how the PM is seemingly incapable of estimating whether threatening to kill an entire continent is unlawful, and has to leave that for his underlings to decide on. Blair usually doesn't falter much when dictating what's right and wrong.
It seems like Denmark is only the second European country to fall under religious dictatorship.
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Looks like the Muslims couldn't help keep us Jews out of it:
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Well, the radical muslims aren't alone in bringing the Jews into this:
http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&hn=29451
| quote: | Originally posted by Goashem
im sure of it that if the muslim community did not react in such a fanatic manner the paper would have apologized for offending them |
No, they wouldn't. If you'd read this thread you would know what considerations lead to the publication, and how the paper could never apologize for the actual act of publication. Newsweek has the following interview with the editor who ran the cartoons:
| quote: | FERRO: What was your thinking behind the decision to publish the Muhammad cartoons back in September?
ROSE: I was concerned about a tendency toward self-censorship among people in artistic and cultural circles in Europe. That's why I commissioned these cartoons, to test this tendency and to start a debate about it.
It was not a media stunt. We just approached that story in a different way, by asking Danish cartoonists to draw Muhammad as they see him. I did not ask for caricatures. I did not ask to make the prophet a laughingstock or to mock him.
But you depicted Muhammad with a bomb in his turban, armed with a knife and with a broken halo that resembled satanic horns.
The cartoon with horns didn't arouse special criticism; it was the other two. The one with the bomb in his turban doesn't say, "All Muslims are terrorists," but says, "Some people have taken Islam hostage to permit terrorist and extremist acts." These cartoons do not treat Muslims in any other way than we treat other citizens in this country. By treating them as equals, we are saying, "You are equal."
Why do you think Muslims are expressing such outrage now, when other religiously offensive cartoons have been published in the past?
I think you have to separate this story into two parts. One part [is the debate] inside Danish borders—that has been going on for four months. On the [one] hand, what does freedom of religion imply, what does respect for other people's feelings and religions imply? You have different points of view, and I think it's problematic if any religion—it doesn't matter if it's Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, any religion—tries to impose its own taboos on the public domain.
When I go to a mosque, I behave by the rules that exist in that holy house. I will not stand up and make a cartoon of the holy prophet in a mosque. But I think if any religion insists that I, as a non-Muslim, should submit to their taboos, then I don't think they're showing me respect. I think they're asking for my submission. This is a key issue in this debate.
You [also] have the international story, and I believe it has little to do with our cartoons. The people in Saudi Arabia and some other countries who have started the action have never seen the cartoons. They are acting on false rumors, misinformation and direct lies.
What does this controversy say about assimilation, or lack thereof, in Europe?
This is a clash of cultures and, in its essence, a debate about how much the receiving society should be willing to compromise its own standards in order to integrate foreigners. On the other hand, how much does the immigrant have to give up in order to be integrated?
Yours is a small Danish paper. Yet your actions had big global ramifications. What does this tell you about how instantly connected the world is today?
This is the first time I've witnessed a story in a newspaper with a circulation of 150,000, in a country of just above 5 million people, becoming a global issue. This is a challenge. It means that what you do in a secular, modern democracy may offend people in some parts of the world, people not living in this type of society. I think it would be unfortunate if people in Saudi Arabia or some parts of the world influenced what we speak about in Denmark. [But] it's a fact of globalization, and we must consider it.
But you tried to influence what happens in Saudi Arabia via the messages in the cartoons.
No, I'm not doing that. This story was about what was going on in Denmark and Northern Europe.
So where do you draw the line between censorship and freedom of speech?
My newspaper has its limits. In a pluralistic society where you do have freedom of speech, my limits should not be the limits of others. We do have laws against racism and blasphemy.
Didn't your newspaper commit blasphemy by depicting Muhammad? Danish prosecutors determined around a month ago that the cartoons were not blasphemous.
Will Jyllands-Posten apologize?
For what? |
| quote: | Originally posted by DaveSZ
This whole episode really brings to light how deeply entrenched fundamentalism is in many predominantly Muslim countries and how much a threat fundamentalism is to all free people across the globe in our modern world without borders.
It also brings into clear view the absolute naiveté, and foolishness of the neocon plan to impose democracy on the Muslim world that is Iraq. |
A further lesson to be learned is how fundamentalist Islam has succeeded in turning the current PC culture into its willing tool. The silence from centrists, from the self-proclaimed defenders of liberty, the US and the UK, from the UN, whose basic rules of conduct have been violated, and from the EU, and the immediate surrender of principles, in favour of another decade of illusions and quiet, by industry and most politicians, points to a terrible development in the world.
By the way, is this humour? I can't tell anymore.
Anyway, some few new angles: The Austrian embassy in Tehran was attacked, had its windows smashed, and firebombs thrown at it. Fortunately the bombs failed to ignite a major fire. Iranian police managed to prevent the demonstrators from gaining entry to the embassy.
Lebanon has apologized to Denmark, one of its ministers has resigned, due to his inability to handle the demonstrators, and Lebanon has accused Syria of trying to overthrow law and order in Lebanon.
Besides the Sandmonkey blog I previously linked to, some Palestinians have started an initiative to help smooth things out. Unfortunately, by apologizing on behalf of their countrymen and/or fellow believers, they are commiting a new variant of the mistake that boycott'ers acted upon: You cannot apologize for the acts of others.
But, it's ofcourse a nice thought. However, the guestbook of the page has a mere couple of hundred of signatures - many of which are from westerners - which pales compared to the hundred thousand hateful signatures in petitions such as
http://www.petitiononline.com/DENMUS/petition.html
http://www.petitiononline.com/lana34/petition.html
which to me suggests that "moderate muslims" are, by far, the minority in the Arab world. It must be awful living among jerks you cannot get through to. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Also, its very sad how some in our west are apologetic and conspiratorial about this issue: http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=508448
Looks like some people will just never get it:( |
I'll trumph your madness with something totally ridiculous:
| quote: | America Behind the Insulting Cartoons: Iranian Journalist
TEHRAN, 6 Feb. (IPS) As Iran recalled its ambassador from Copenhagen in protest to the printing of some cartoons considers by Muslims as insulting to their prophet, one of Iran’s most influential journalists accused the Americans to have “organised the plot”.
“The not strange silence of Al-Qa’eda is the best reason proving that America is behind the cartoons that insulted the holly Messenger of the Almighty”, Mr. Hoseyn Sahri’atmadari wrote on the 4 February 2005 issue of the radical daily “Keyhan”, commenting on the cartoons of Muslim’s prophet Mohammad.
Appointed by Ayatollah Ali Khameneh’i, the leader of the Islamic Republic as the Managing Editor of the radical daily, Mr. Shari’atmadari is an advisor to the leader and as a high-ranking security officer; he specializes in the interrogation of political and intellectual dissidents.
According to Mr. Shari’atmadari, generally considered as the “brain” of the ruling conservative establishment, “even if Al-Qa’eda would have taken position in the recent controversy (over the publishing of several cartoons of the prophet Mohammad), still no one would have the slightest doubt that the group is made in America and its silence shows clearly that the insult to the Messenger of God in European press has American-Israel roots” (sic), he said.
However, Brother Hoseyn, as he is called by his opponents, did not explain the link between the “silence of the terrorist group led by Ossama Ben Laden (considered as the mastermind behind the destruction of New York’s twin towers of Trade World Center on 11 September 1999) and the incriminated cartoons.
“The Al-Qa’eda is observing a significant silence concerning the insult to the Messenger of God even though the group, when it was ruling over Afghanistan, would consider men with beards less than 7 centimeters long as being in contravention of Islamic laws and the education of girls as a sin”, he pointed out. (sic)
Explaining his “discovery”, Mr. Shari’atmadari said “in 2002, after France opposed the United States’ war on Iraq, a French vessel exploded near the costs of Yemen and immediately Al-Qa’eda claimed responsibility in a videotape sent to (the Qatar-based) Al Jazira Television, accusing France of being the enemy of Islam. The group did the same with Germany, another country that was also against the Iraqi war, menacing it with attacks on public places in Germany”.
“This time, the mission of insulting the Messenger was given to a few European journalists instead of giving it to Al-Qa’eda. If the group would have no American nature, it should have entered the arena much earlier”, (sic) Mr. Shari’atmadari concluded, forgetting that he had been one of the first “big voices” in Iran to criticize the Government of not having “punished” the Danes. |
You can't make something like this up - it has to be deluded.:eyespop: |
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| [MaRt] |
| quote: | "They want to test our feelings," protester Mawli Abdul Qahar Abu Israra told the BBC.
"They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and to their newspapers," he said. |
An interesting quote, I thought. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by DaveSZ
It also brings into clear view the absolute naiveté, and foolishness of the neocon plan to impose democracy on the Muslim world that is Iraq.
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Funny how Iraqi elections has high turnouts, eh?
But that's another debate.
And yep. I called it. Iran trying to blame the Great Satan. And why not? there's enough dumbasses that'll believe that US is behind this, because they want to.
(And unfortunately for us, no way to cull them from the gene pool) |
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| InterMilan31 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Genesis Evolved
Indeed :rolleyes:
On a sidenote, I find it somewhat odd that our allies, the UK and the US, have showed so little backing on this matter. Kudos to our Prime Minister for not crumbling under pressure. |
seriously..
as for the US's stance I believe its crazy but then again our freedom of speech rights have been taken away little by little with this administraition. Nevertheless we should come out and back Denmark this is ridiculous. I can see a war breaking out and like my kids learning about it in school....World War 3 started over a cartoon:stongue: |
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| Groundhog Boy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Goashem
no i assumed the very original was the one with the pig snout (or something related to a pig) and later came the one with the bomb on his head. in either case, im sure of it that if the muslim community did not react in such a fanatic manner the paper would have apologized for offending them and we'd all move on with our lives. |
Your assumption is part of the whole problem. The pig snout cartoon was created by god knows who, but I'd almost guess it was a Muslim attempting to incite this sort of reaction since the distributors, who are Muslim, won't reveal the source/artists (see page 5 of this thread). There were 2 other fake cartoons in addition to the pig one. One shows Muhammad as a pedophile demon and the other depicts a praying Muslim being raped by a dog. THESE WEREN'T PRINTED BY THE DANISH PAPER!, as you'd have learned if you read the entire thread and the supporting material.
The other thing you'd have learned if you'd have read the article is that the paper did apologize.
The one with the bomb shaped turban was real, but you know what, this reaction does nothing but reinforce that idea. I mean, what genius sat down and said, "I'm pissed off because Muhammad is made to look like a terrorist, so let's go blow some up and burn down embassies to show we're upset about Muslims being depicted as a violent people." |
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