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Jihad on Denmark - freedom of expression rears its ugly head once again... (pg. 29)
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Btw. just heard that Sweden has closed down the homepage of one of their right wing parties, because it carried the Satanic Cartoons. Jihad certainly seems to work. |
It does. It was an independent web host that decided to take it down after the "Swedish FBI" (SÄPO) showed them our national security report (or whatever you should call it). They claimed that they only informed the webhost about this and did not force them to shut it down, however some ppl in parliament decided to open an investigation on it and I guess we will see if that was really the case (I guess it was).
Anyway, it sucks that it's working. Its also ironic that all the middle eastern countries are going nuts over this (a very very minor paper that has a reader base of like a few thusands) while there are several major newspapers that already published them :conf: |
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| ArcticBeach |
here is another cartoon
:crazy: |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by ArcticBeach
here is another cartoon
:crazy: |
LOL! :haha: |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Yes, it was very enlightening, thank you. One thing I didn't get, though, was the issue of rights/duties on behalf of the dhimmi. Do the Quran lay down any of those (apart from the military service thing)? |
I'm not sure what your question is. Could you rephrase that :conf:? |
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| Lepanto |
| quote: | Originally posted by ArcticBeach
here is another cartoon
:crazy: |
if anyone wants to argue that this isn't true, just take a bath with a toaster, it'll clear everything up.
i lol'd |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I'm not sure what your question is. Could you rephrase that :conf:? |
Yes, sure. I was wondering about the civil rights of a non-Muslim in a caliphate. That is, whether the non-Muslim are free to do whatever he likes and whether there are any requirements bestowed upon him (apart from paying the alternative tax). According to the Quran, and not tradition/Islamism, that is.
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
It does. It was an independent web host that decided to take it down after the "Swedish FBI" (SÄPO) showed them our national security report (or whatever you should call it). They claimed that they only informed the webhost about this and did not force them to shut it down, however some ppl in parliament decided to open an investigation on it and I guess we will see if that was really the case (I guess it was). |
So, I guess Sverigesdemokraterne (the rightwingers, right?) can sue their ISP for breech of contract?
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
Anyway, it sucks that it's working. Its also ironic that all the middle eastern countries are going nuts over this (a very very minor paper that has a reader base of like a few thusands) while there are several major newspapers that already published them :conf: |
Well, at this point it's quite clear that the decision makers in Middle Eastern countries are not constrained by reason or consistency. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Yes, sure. I was wondering about the civil rights of a non-Muslim in a caliphate. That is, whether the non-Muslim are free to do whatever he likes |
Well, everyone one is bound by the law, wheather you like it or not. You're free to practice your religion or not practice any religion. "Do whatever he/she wants" is pretty vague. So I'm not sure how to answer that one. I seriously doubt beastiality or orgies or things of that nature would be tolerated, atleast in public view. I mean, there's never is absolute freedom to do whatever you want in any society, especially if the consequences are believed to impact society negatively. Yeah, I'm sure you could technically have your bars and stuff, since Muslims are not allowed to consume or sell alcohol but non-Muslims don't have such restrictions. So it would be a fairly private thing for non-Muslims and the "drinking sub-culture" would be quite different.
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
and whether there are any requirements bestowed upon him (apart from paying the alternative tax). According to the Quran, and not tradition/Islamism, that is. |
No, not really, they pretty much have the same rights as everyone else. Infact, they have the privelage of not participating and dying in case a war breaks out and would be garanteed protection from the state.
Another "good" thing about jazya is that since they're paying taxes and all, that is, are contributing to the state and not free loading, people tend to leave them alone and let them live how they want.
I'm not sure if that really helped but life in a secular state and an Islamic state (which do not exist today) are fairly different in many regards. The underlying political and economic ideology shape a society (and ofcourse whatever the cultural norm of morality is). |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
So, I guess Sverigesdemokraterne (the rightwingers, right?) can sue their ISP for breech of contract? |
Probably not. Most ISPs/webhosts have a clause which basically says that "if we find something unappropriate we have the right to cancel and or suspend your account without any notice or explanation" |
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| Fir3start3r |
Woah is the day when the fury of the anti-West reaches Ronald...
...and no, that's not photoshopped...
>>Source<< |
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| washout |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Woah is the day when the fury of the anti-West reaches Ronald...
...and no, that's not photoshopped...
>>Source<< |
i sit back and just breath all this in.
how dumb is it to get so upset about silly cartoons.
i think any descent religion teaches moderation.
and these ****** are just acting like monkeys.
i am becoming more scared of muslims across the ocean than black people by my house. |
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| trancaholic |
Some further news. Starting out with the bad ones, Norway has apparently inforced a law against blasphemy.:
| quote: | | "Law 150-A, which has been approved by parliament, criminalizes blasphemy and clearly prohibits despising others or lampooning religions in any form of expression, including the use of photographs," Norway's Deputy Archbishop Oliva Howika told reporters after a meeting in Doha with Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, the head of the International Union of Muslim Scholars. |
I guess "Life of Brian", several issues of MAD, the Simpsons, etc. will soon be banned in Norway. Incredible that these guys stood up to the Nazis in WW2. Maybe all the brave and principled Norwegians were wiped out back then, and only the cowards were left to reproduce.:conf:
Meanwhile the absolute hypocracy of the mass media continues to be exposed. The new photos from Abu-Ghraib have been plastered all over, and some pat themselves on the back for making sure that the world knows what horrors took place. This from the same media that thought it unnecessary to show their audience what the cartoon crisis was actually about. The NY Times takes a deep plounge into the pool of obvious hypocracy, publishing an editorial on "a climate of pervasive hostility toward anything Muslim in Denmark", written by a left-wing reporter from Denmark. The piece is mostly based on the fact that
| quote: | | For 20 years, Muslims in Denmark have been denied a permit to build mosques in Copenhagen. What's more, there are no Muslim cemeteries in Denmark, which means that the bodies of Muslims who die here have to be flown back to their home countries for proper burial. |
which, apart from not being a fact, is a straight out f*cking lie. In addition to this, the reporter conjectures ("to my mind") and reports of outrage "here" when TV-reports of the Danish flag burning during riots had been shown. Jyllands-posten has confronted the reporter, who admitted to not having lived in Denmark in many years, and that the part about Muslim rights in Denmark was false. However, don't expect the NY Times to stoop to the level of, you know, issuing a correction.
What's really agitating me about this piece, is that it starts out patronizing the reader about the necessity of understanding the Denmark of today if one wants to understand the cartoon crisis. This from a paper who didn't even show their readers the cartoons themselves. Arrgh!:whip:
Well, it's only an editorial in a paper, you might say. However, misinformation travels fast. A Professor Mahmood Mamdani at Columbia University participated in a debate on NPR on the cartoons along with a commentator from Germany. Mamdani uncritically repeated the false information in his condemnation of Denmark, and furthermore added (the correct fact) that a Muslim graveyard in southern Denmark had been vandalized about a week ago, not realizing the obvious contradiction between this and the supposed ban on Muslim graveyards in Denmark until the German pointed it out to him. The professor has since declined to comment on his comments on Denmark, only citing the NY Times piece as his main source of information. Very scientific I'm sure you'll agree.
On the positive side, we see the EU getting its act together. The parliament has begun drafting a resolution which clearly sanctifies freedom of expression. Furthermore, the Czech President has suggested that the EU should compensate Denmark for the losses it has suffered due to the boycott. The move should be seen as a clear message that the EU stands with Denmark in this case. Finally, the head of the EU commision, Barrosos, gave this talk yesterday:
| quote: | The publication of cartoons in Danish and other European newspapers and the reactions to this have revealed sensitive and fundamental issues. The cartoons have aggrieved many Muslims all over the world. We must respect these sensitivities and the expression of them through peaceful protest - which is a fundamental right in any open society.
I share the views expressed by Prime Minister Fogh Rasmussen, where he made clear that his government respects Islam as one of the world's major religions and that it has no intention to insult Muslims and does not support activities in this sense. I want, personally today, to emphasise my deep respect for Islamic civilisation and the contribution it has made and continues to make to Europe.
The Commission's concern is not with the peaceful response of the majority to the cartoons. It is with the violent reactions of a minority. Reactions which have been disowned by many Muslims.
Therefore the Commission condemns, in the strongest possible terms, the violence perpetrated against our office in Gaza, and against the missions of the Member States, in particular those of Denmark. It is ironic that the aim of these missions is to bring real benefits to the lives of the people of their host countries.
Nor is a trade boycott an appropriate way of addressing the issue. It would hurt the economic interests of all parties and could damage the growing trading links between the EU and the countries concerned. Trade, and the greater interconnections it brings, is a means to promote mutual understanding. And let us be clear; a boycott of Danish goods is by definition a boycott of European goods.
I have spoken with the Prime Minister of Denmark and expressed the solidarity of the Commission. I want here today to send my solidarity to the people of Denmark as well; a people who rightly enjoy the reputation as being amongst the most open and tolerant not just in Europe but in the world. I welcome here today their representatives, in the form of a delegation from the Danish Parliament.
I have also spoken with Chancellor Schussel. The Commission will continue to work with the Austrian Presidency and all parties to resolve the problem peacefully and efficiently.
This issue raises wider themes. Our European society is based on respect for the individual person's life and freedom, equality of rights between men and women, freedom of speech, and a clear distinction between politics and religion. Our point of departure is that as human beings we are free, independent, equal and responsible. We must safeguard these principles.
Freedom of speech is part of Europe's values and traditions. Let me be clear. Freedom of speech is not negotiable. Like all freedoms, its preservation depends on responsible use by individuals. Governments or other public authorities do not prescribe or authorize the opinions expressed by individuals. Conversely, the opinions expressed by individuals engage these individuals, and only them. They do not engage a country, a people, a religion. And we should not allow others to pretend that they do.
Freedom of speech is the basis not only of the possibility to publish an opinion, but also to criticize it. Freedom of speech cuts both ways.
Freedom of speech has limits, as well. These must be respected. They are defined and enforced by the law and legal systems of the Member States of the European Union. It is self evidently unacceptable to go outside the law.
Freedom of religion is not negotiable either. Just as Europe respects freedom of speech so it must, and does, respect freedom of religion. Religious freedom is a fundamental right of individuals and communities, it entails respect for the integrity of all religious convictions and all ways in which they are exercised. Muslims must be able to practise their faith in the same way as the adherents of other religions and convictions practise theirs.
The European Union and its Member States have for a long time promoted dialogue between different communities both within the EU and with neighbouring Muslim countries and Muslim countries in other parts of the world.
It is through a vigorous but peaceful dialogue of opinions under the protection of the freedom of expression that mutual understanding can be deepened and mutual respect can be built. I am fostering and will continue to foster dialogue between cultures and with religions. This dialogue must be based on tolerance, not prejudice, and on freedom of expression and religion and the values connected with them. Violence is the enemy of dialogue. We must not allow the minority of extremists to win. Let the best of our values win against the worst of prejudices. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Some further news. Starting out with the bad ones, Norway has apparently inforced a law against blasphemy.:
I guess "Life of Brian", several issues of MAD, the Simpsons, etc. will soon be banned in Norway. Incredible that these guys stood up to the Nazis in WW2. Maybe all the brave and principled Norwegians were wiped out back then, and only the cowards were left to reproduce.:conf: |
That is ing aweful.
Weird that no media here has reported it though :conf: |
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