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Jihad on Denmark - freedom of expression rears its ugly head once again... (pg. 33)
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| InterMilan31 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Unbelievable how they can distort an issue so greatly. And they make it seem like the cartoons that were published were all so horrible when in reality many of them were in good taste...
Guess now you Europeans can see how news media distorts reality when it comes to ... Arab conflict ;) :p |
seriously you would think the media would back...the media! |
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| trancaholic |
Our PM just gave an interview to the second largest paper in Denmark (after Jyllands-posten), and it is probably the harshest and most direct comments I've seen from him. He lashed out at industry, media, and the cultural elite, for selling short a fundamental value - freedom of speech - for the sake of cheap points in the domestic debate on immigration laws and/or petty income from the Middle East. The money quote:
"For instance, I would never accept that it should not be possible to discuss sharia critically. The fact that someone say it is sacred must not result in that it cannot be discussed. There's a lot of talk about offense, but one has to ask oneself what is more offensive - some drawings or two boys in the gallows in Iran or women being stoned or hands being chopped off? One should keep ones proportions reasonable."
What's your answer to that question?
"I know exactly what my personal preferences are. It is clear that I'm more offended by seeing two teenagers hanging from a gallow in Iran, and I want to be able to state that opinion."
I love him! It sure took a lot of time for him to go balistic on this issue (he's done it before on the Theo van Gogh one), but I guess real politics had to be taken care of first.
In other news, Annan just joined Clinton on my WTF?-list:
| quote: | The offensive caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad were first published in a European country which has recently acquired a significant Muslim population and is not yet sure how to adjust to it. And some of the strongest reactions - perhaps especially the more violent ones - have been seen in Muslim countries where many people feel themselves the victims of excessive Western influence or interference.
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Notice that it is Denmark who needs to "adjust" to Muslims choosing to live in Denmark. Also notice how Muslims countries are the ones being subjected to "interference" here. Calls for the extradition of cartoonists and curbing of civil liberties by foreign Muslim leaders, on the other hand, are seemingly not much of an issue. |
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| InterMilan31 |
mate whats the current "feeling" just walking the streets of Denmark for example when I lived in England when I would walk around I could feel a sorta semi rift between the whites and muslims how about in Denmark any thing doing?
Sounds like the protests have gone down a bit around the world but its only a matter of time for something to happen I sadly believe.... |
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| NebulousQ |
| This worlds a crazy, screwed up place. Thank God I was born in America.(If i was Canadian I would have said Canada, If Danish Denmark, etc. if Sudanese I would just cry) |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by InterMilan31
mate whats the current "feeling" just walking the streets of Denmark for example when I lived in England when I would walk around I could feel a sorta semi rift between the whites and muslims how about in Denmark any thing doing? |
It seems to be calmer in Denmark than in the rest of the world right now. The only bad domestic news I've gotten the last couple of weeks was the smashin of windows at some pizzarias owned by Muslims - whether the incidents were motivated by the Mohammad case or not is not known. When I walk the street I'm rarely in a position to judge whether the people around me are Muslim or not, but I haven't noticed any increase in hostile looks from people of Arab or Persian origin.
Domestically Danes seem to have moved towards a political consensus the last month. The Danish People's Party, which is well-known for its anti-immigrant policies, has been quite vocal on the need to distinguish between extremists and ordinary peaceful Muslims - even to the point of saying that the latter group should be welcomed in the Danish society and be helped as much as we can. The Liberal Center party, which traditionally has advocated a very humanist stance on immigration, has also changed rhetorics. They previously refused to even talk to the Danish People's party, aimed at easing immigration policies, and seemed to believe that all problems were essentially due to a lack of dialogue, but has lately come out with statements urging people to recognize that the Muslim community contains radical elements that should be considered every bit as hurtful to integration as the nazis, and in support of strict dealings with the Travelling Imams. Heck the two parties even ganged up to push forth a piece of legislation recently, so things are looking bright on the political scene in Denmark as of now.
When I talk to other Danes, I get the feeling that a lot of them fears that Denmark has lost all respect and sympathy in the outside world over this. Sure, they've heard about the Buy Danish campaign, the unequivocal support of the Netherlands and the Czech Republic, and the small "Support Denmark" demonstration in DC, but compared to the general condemnation of Jyllands-posten and Denmark in the foreign media and by foreign (western) political leaders, a lot of Danes see a bleak future for Denmark internationally. |
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| InterMilan31 |
| good info...it definitly seems to me that alot of that worrying stuff about population ecomomies in europe will falter if they dont improve immigration is biting some countries in the ass...mostly England where they have immigrants attack them...some of the policies are a joke(UK one i know the most) which practically lets anyone in the country:rolleyes: |
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| Purple |
| What I find more unusual, is how Vatican is keeping mum all this time. I bet if Pope John Paul was there, he would have taken some stance on this issue, or atleast speak something about it. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by Purple
What I find more unusual, is how Vatican is keeping mum all this time. I bet if Pope John Paul was there, he would have taken some stance on this issue, or atleast speak something about it. |
The Vatican has spoken out - they're against the drawings (like everyone else), but has since then (through some underling to the Pope) also asked Muslim countries to consider how Christians are treated in these countries and whether Muslims should practice what they preach. |
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| InterMilan31 |
| this issue seems to me has blown over a bit but pretty shocking to me as I thought it would lead to other things....or is just that the media is on to other stories? |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by InterMilan31
this issue seems to me has blown over a bit but pretty shocking to me as I thought it would lead to other things....or is just that the media is on to other stories? |
Hmm. Forgive me for not sourcing these, but I can't take time to do that right now. Off the top of my head, this is from within the last week:
- Some 50000 people protested in Karachi, and 20000 in Turkey (Istanbul I think it was).
- In meetings between the EU and Arab countries, Arab countries pressed for the EU to introduce strict blasphemy laws.
- Muslims protested a play, written by Voltaire, in a French village, because it offended their sensitivities. Security had to be raised to a ridiculous level.
- The British interior minister has publicly criticised the Danish PM for not meeting with the Muslim ambassadors (apparently without taking time to actually get to know the specifics of the case), and Jack Straw's office issued a statement saying that those views harmonised with their own. In a debate related to the issuement of a joint EU statement on the affair, it became clear that the EU is torn on the issue, with Spain and the UK wanting to appease Muslims, and other countries, spearheaded by the Netherlands, want to send a clear signal that religious sensitivities are not protected by law in the EU.
- Egypt's tourist industry is hit hard by a drastic drop in Scandinavian tourists, and they're whining about it. Supposedly Europeans in general are reluctant to book a trip to Egypt as well. Turkey's tourist industry suffers a similar fate.
- An editor of a news paper in Yemen has been put on trial, with several prosecutors seemingly outbidding each other in a chaotic race to be most radical. The editor has been charged with causing trauma to some of the plaintiffs, besides insulting the prophet. The prosecutors demands range from having the paper shut down and all property confiscated, to that the editor be executed.
- There has been a pro-Denmark/free speech rally in NYC, and supposedly there will be one in San Francisco this weekend.
- In Nigeria battles between Muslims and Christians continue to escalate, with more than 150 dead so far.
- Salman Rushdie and a bunch of other intellectuals have released a manifesto which urges non-theocrats to fight Islamism.
- Denmark has re-opened its diplomatic missions in Syria and Indonesia.
So, in short, I don't think the issue has died, and that everyone gets along. It's probably just that the MSM finds the issues of ports, Iran, Cheney-shootings etc. more explosive.
In Denmark, things have hardly calmed down. Seemingly we're divided into three groups: Those which see the Cartoon Crisis as a wake up call (by far the largest), those who sees all of this as the fault of the government and a Denmark drawn too far to the right (the cultural elite), and finally those who just wish all of this would go away, which is the people who's "tired" of hearing of cartoons and freedom of speech (the second largest portion). If the rest of Europe is divided in similar proportions, then I predict that the next time your MSM will devote pages to the issue will be in the coming elections, as social democratic governments will then fall all over Europe, and we might see an EU with a far less lenient attitude to Muslim sensibilities. Normally, easily swayed voters have a short memory, but in this instance, I think the shift to the right will be with us for quite some time. |
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| St_Andrew |
| So an update from Sweden, things are getting interesting here now again, previously our foreign minister denied that she knew anything about the closedown of the Sverigedemokrater's website that contained the cartoons. However after an investigation it came up that she actually did. Now this might not have been so fun if our PM previously hadn't heavily criticized the person that knew about this at the state department (non politican). It will definitely be interesting to see if this criticism will now be diverted to our foreign minister (our PM have earlier defended this minister to no end despite all her stupid things she has done). And the investigation goes on, hopefully more fun things will emerge (like our PM knowing about it, which wouldn't suprise me) :) |
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| trancaholic |
^^^ Is she the one that Persson wants to take over from him when he retires?
Besides internal strife between government, industry, opposition, and the PC elite, the debate in Denmark has mainly turned to the UN this last week. A very recent UN report criticizes Denmark for instigating Islamphobia through its policies, and yesterday the following ad appeared from the UN:
It says "Racism can take many forms". And that is a Lego brick for those who do not know how these look. The ad has drawn very hard criticism - even from the most progressive of Danes, such as the head of our institute on human rights (a long time advocate of dialogue, respect, and mild appeasement).
Some Danes, including quite a few politicians, have started questioning the UN's authority, and the recent failures of the UN (Rwanda, Sudan, oil-for-food, nepotism, etc.) have all become topics of interest again. The Christians in Denmark have also asked why the UN doesn't release reports on the rights of Christians in Muslim countries.
I'm pretty sure that this questioning of the UN will blow over, though, but next time Bush calls the UN a "debating society" he will find less Danes disagreeing with him. As I read in a commentary recently "No-one is digging ditches between the left and the right in Denmark. Those ditches were dug years ago. What's happening today is that more and more on the left are jumping the ditch to the right." |
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