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Jihad on Denmark - freedom of expression rears its ugly head once again... (pg. 5)
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
On a P.S.
Must suck to be the editor the newspaper right now, I am confident several terrorist groups are all ready planning to take him out. I'm not actually sure what money a newspaper has to buy bodygaurds..
Put I wouldn't leave home (or stay in it for that matter) without them. |
One would hope he gets protection...
Anyway, this is getting ridiculous indeed... :whip: |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
One would hope he gets protection...
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He does - 24h "police protection", whatever that may be.
Anyway, I must say that I'm an extremely disappointed man today: I'm disappointed in the EU, for its failure to act in unison in this matter. I'm even more disappointed/puzzled by all the foreign media, which have so far failed to pick up on the story - I would have guessed that freedom of speech, and foreign demands of censorship would hit at the very core of news organisations.
Then I'm disappointed in Jyllands-posten for issuing not one, but two apologies. Furthermore, Arab media have failed to cover these apologies, with Al-jazeera being the prime offender, having translated all parts of an interview with an editor from JP, except the part where he says he's sorry about the furor.
I'm also somewhat disappointed in Bill Clinton, for seemingly getting on the Arab fundamentalist side in this.
Finally, I'm fundamentally shaken by what seems to become a fact: Danes are subject to censorship from illeterate religious barbarians not even living in Denmark. That's hard to take for a liberal agnostic.:(
However, it seems like it's the Americans who are the Danes best friends today:
| quote: | Buy Danish! to counter the Islamic boycott (updated!)
Several months ago an international boycott was launched against Israel by educational unions in the UK. Leftist churches have passed anti-Israel investment policies. For some reason political boycotts always come from the Left, and they are always one-sided.
Now Denmark is the target. It’s the “cartoon crisis!” After the newspaper Jyllands Posten published satirical cartoons featuring Mohammed, the Islamic world has been building up a head of steam. How could the Danes laugh at the Prophet, and worse, publish drawings of Allah’s ultimate representative on earth? Pictorial depictions of the human figure are a big taboo; pictures of Mohammed are even worse; and satirical cartoons of Mohammed are the ueber-ueber-taboo to the fundamentalists.
The Prime Minister of Denmark, Fogh Rasmussen, has given a simple answer.
“Freedom of expression is deeply ingrained in a society where democracy prevails.”
So there.
Now the Saudis and Libyans have recalled their ambassadors to Copenhagen, and the Yemen Parliament has condemned the “cartoon outrage.”
“BAHRAIN’S parliament will meet in an extraordinary session today as outrage grows over offensive caricatures depicting Prophet Mohammed, published in Denmark and Norway. MPs have urged a nationwide boycott of Danish and Norwegian products, until the countries apologise.”
The Jyllands Posten now has a 24 hour police guard on its building. Needless to say, the Danes (and later the Norwegians) have apologized for offending Muslims. But apologies won’t be enough—- those countries have to guarantee it will never happen again.
”... the harm has been done and our religion has been insulted. What guarantees do we have that this won’t happen again? An apology from the editor-in-chief isn’t enough, we want it from the demonic person who drew them.”
Get this – the fundamentalist Muslim world is determined to extend religious censorship over foreign countries. And it won’t stop there.
If the boycott works against little Denmark, it will be used again and again. Arabic countries have plenty of oil money for buying and boycotting products. China just got Google to censor its internet users – why wouldn’t the Muslim world do the same thing? They are bound to try.
It’s worth remembering that Islamic fundamentalists have been publishing an endless stream of Nazi-style hate cartoons against Israel and the United States. But that’s OK. Killing people is good, if they are infidels and condemned by Allah. Drawing satirical cartoons of Mohammed will get you a death warrant.
So for those who believe in free speech, you might consider joining the counter-boycott: Buy Danish!
And tell the world if you love Havarti cheese, Lego toys, Georg Jensen designs, Tuborg and Carlsberg beer, Danish ham, and free cartooning.
Remember that Denmark was the only Nazi-occuppied European country that came out of World War Two with its moral reputation intact. The Danes just didn’t put up with Jews being sent to concentration camps. They smuggled them out to neutral Sweden.
Maybe Denmark will have the honor of being the first European country to stand against today’s Islamic fascism.
Two sides can play at this boycott game. Buy Danish!
UPDATE:
Richard Baehr writes:
Hamas began a new charm offensive today, by threatening Danes and Norwegians who visit Gaza. Free speech or free exercise of religion (say not be to be an Islamic fundamentalist) are not part of what free elections have brought to the Palestinian territories.
Hamas means to deny free speech elsewhere, not just in their own rump state. Kind of like fatwahs against Salmon rushdie and the murdering Van Gogh. Hamas would obviously approve, having a thuggish record of its own.
Hamas may be the gift that keeps on giving for Israel, as Europeans get a taste of Hamas’ operating style.
EDITOR’S NOTE:
Readers have written wanting to see the cartoons. For obvious reasons nobody wants to publish them. But I the very first search engine I chose led to me a slow-loading site where I saw them.
BREAKING NEWS UPDATE:
Bill Clinton has just denounced the cartoons:
Clinton described as “appalling” the 12 cartoons published in a Danish newspaper in September depicting Prophet Mohammed and causing uproar in the Muslim world.
“None of us are totally free of stereotypes about people of different races, different ethnic groups, and different religions … there was this appalling example in northern Europe, in Denmark … these totally outrageous cartoons against Islam,” he said.
The cartoons, including a portrayal of the prophet wearing a time-bomb-shaped turban, were reprinted in a Norwegian magazine in January, sparking uproar in the Muslim world where images of the prophet are considered blasphemous.
Clinton criticised the tendency to generalise negative news of Islamic militancy.
DENMARK UPDATE:
The Editor-in-Chief of Jyllands Posten points out that various cartoons have been attributed to his newspaper that never appeared there, and explains the entire project: Honourable Fellow Citizens of the Muslim World
Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten is a strong proponent of democracy and freedom of religion. The newspaper respects the right of any human being to practise his or her religion. Serious misunderstandings in respect of some drawings of the Prophet Mohammed have led to much anger and, lately, also boycott of Danish goods in Muslim countries.
Please allow me to correct these misunderstandings.
On 30 September last year, Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten published 12 different cartoonists’ idea of what the Prophet Mohammed might have looked like. The initiative was taken as part of an ongoing public debate on freedom of expression, a freedom much cherished in Denmark.
In our opinion, the 12 drawings were sober. They were not intended to be offensive, nor were they at variance with Danish law, but they have indisputably offended many Muslims for which we apologize.
Since then a number of offensive drawings have circulated in The Middle East which have never been published in Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten and which we would never have published, had they been offered to us. We would have refused to publish them on the grounds that they violated our ethical code.
Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten attaches importance to upholding the highest ethical standards based upon the respect of our fundamental values. It is so much more deplorable, therefore, that these drawings were presented as if they had anything to do with Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten.
Maybe because of culturally based misunderstandings, the initiative to publish the 12 drawings has been interpreted as a campaign against Muslims in Denmark and the rest of the world.
I must categorically dismiss such an interpretation. Because of the very fact that we are strong proponents of the freedom of religion and because we respect the right of any human being to practise his or her religion, offending anybody on the grounds of their religious beliefs is unthinkable to us.
That this happened was, consequently, unintentional.
As a result of the debate that has been going on about the drawings, we have met with representatives of Danish Muslims, and these meetings were held in a positive and constructive spirit. We have also sought in other ways to initiate a fruitful dialogue with Danish Muslims.
It is the wish of Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten that various ethnic groups should live in peace and harmony with each other and that the debates and disagreements which will always exist in a dynamic society should do so in an atmosphere of mutual respect.
For that reason, Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten has published many articles describing the positive aspects of integration, for example in a special supplement entitled The Contributors. It portrayed a number of Muslims who have had success in Denmark. The supplement was rewarded by the EU Commission.
Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten takes exception to symbolic acts suited to demonise specific nationalities, religions and ethnic groups.
Sincerely yours
Carsten Juste Editor-in-Chief |
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| St_Andrew |
So seems like the Danish Muslims are satisified with the half-appologize by Jyllandsposten.
http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Politik/2006/01/31/125658.htm
(couldn't find a god damn English site reporting it)
But it seems like the new threat is comming from the middle east, where the apologize seems to be nowhere near enough... |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
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While I share most of your concerns, I still think Jyllandsposten did the right thing to apologize, not because they published the pictures but because they offended ppl. Also I think the EU took a stance against the boycotts? I can't find the article where i read that though...
Anyway, this seems like a great initiative:
| quote: | Khader confronts fundamentalists
By The Copenhagen Post
MP Naser Khader spearheads a network of Muslims trying to create a moderate counterweight to extremist groups
Naser Khader's patience with extremist Muslims has expired. The time has come for moderate Muslims to confront extremist groups, the Palesinian-born MP told weekly newspaper Søndagsavisen.
'To be a practicing Muslim is not the same as being an extremist. I'll fight the people who think they can tell me and others how to be a good Muslim. That is a matter between Allah and individual Muslims,' he said.
Together with 120 other Muslims, Khader recently announcd the creation of the Alternative Muslim Network, a group that seeks to provide a voice for moderate Muslims.
Khader hoped the group could provide a historic turning point for a tolerant form of Islam that demonstrated that it is possible to be Muslim, democratic, and Danish.
As one of the country's most prominent Muslims, Khader has found himself in the line of fire from many sides over the years. He is often asked by journalists to act as a spokesperson for the country's 200,000 Muslims, but fundamentalist Muslims have also turned on Khader for what they consider his secular ways.
Despite their criticism, Khader maintains that its possible to be both modern and Muslim.
'The difference between me and the fundamentalists is that I am a Muslim in a dynamic way. Islam should be interpreted based on the contemporary times we live in,' said Khader. 'Fundamentalists say that what is written in the Koran is the truth for all time. That is an opinion we moderate Muslims want to challenge.' |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
While I share most of your concerns, I still think Jyllandsposten did the right thing to apologize, not because they published the pictures but because they offended ppl. |
Yes, unfortunately they did it three times, which in my mind is caving in - also because the distinction is not apparent from the headlines (e.g. "Jyllands-posten Apologises" rather than "Jyllands-posten Apologises for Outrage"). Apparently, the move has opened the door to even further demands on behalf of the illiterates. Now they want apologies from the cartoonists, our prime minister, and (yes) even our queen. It looks like a snowballing effect to me, but I might be wrong.
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
Also I think the EU took a stance against the boycotts? I can't find the article where i read that though... |
I saw individual ministers condemn the threats against Scandinavians, and supposedly the EU commisioner for trade has threatened Saudi-Arabia government against officially sanctioning the current boycott.
What I was hoping for was a joint statement from the EU ministers, which condemned the reactions, and in clear language stated that the free press cannot, will not, and must not ever be suppressed in the EU - religious feelings be damned. The EU has been quick to condemn before (Russia and Israel spring to mind), why not now?
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
Anyway, this seems like a great initiative: |
Yes. Khader is a very cool person. I'm not really aligned with him politically, but he's a rational being, with a remarkable love of the principles of Danish governance. (I think a lot of other Danish politicians take these for granted.) Unfortunately, he only represents a very small group of people, compared to the 15000+ people backing the Islamic Faith Community, which is a more radical organization. That being said, the IFC is nothing like the really extreme fundamentalists, which we see in the Middle East. The IFC did instigate the conflict, and did spread misinformation about Denmark, but has denounced the current events, and apparently wants to make amends by trying to correct misinterpretations in the Middle East.
In fact, Danish muslims is one of the few involved groups in which I'm not disappointed right now.;) |
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| trancaholic |
Sorry for the continual spamming - it's just that things keep happening, and the basic premise at stake here is quite important to me.
Today both a French and a German paper ran re-prints of the cartoons. The French paper, France Soir, also added their own cartoon to the front page:
(It's Jesus saying: "Relax Mohammad, we've all been caricaturised")
The German paper, Die Welt, brought one of the original cartoons on its front page, and another four within the paper. I don't know about Die Welt's reasons for doing so, but France Soir has done it as a clear statement in support of freedom of expression.
So, I guess I was too hasty in condemning the foreign press. |
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Sorry for the continual spamming - it's just that things keep happening, and the basic premise at stake here is quite important to me.
Today both a French and a German paper ran re-prints of the cartoons. The French paper, France Soir, also added their own cartoon to the front page:
(It's Jesus saying: "Relax Mohammad, we've all been caricaturised")
The German paper, Die Welt, brought one of the original cartoons on its front page, and another four within the paper. I don't know about Die Welt's reasons for doing so, but France Soir has done it as a clear statement in support of freedom of expression.
So, I guess I was too hasty in condemning the foreign press. |
I read that an Italian and a Spanish paper printed them as well :) |
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| occrider |
Hmmm this is all so strangely familiar for some reason .... oh yes I remember now.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004...ain593870.shtml
I guess the jews don't have as much leverage in europe ... or perhaps they just didn't care as much.
I wonder where this would fall under Britain’s religious "hate" laws. |
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| HardTranceProd |
It's interesting to see that the conflict with fundamentalist Muslims is not just about America anymore! In many ways, America is vindicated.
If a caricature of a Christian God were made like this in America, it probably would have been technically allowed (due to freedom of speech) but the author would have received a lot of death threats and hostile disapproval from 99% of the public ... |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
It's interesting to see that the conflict with fundamentalist Muslims is not just about America anymore! In many ways, America is vindicated. |
Yea didn't we have some kind kind of boycott against the french? Hmm I can't really remember so I'll just shut up and resume eating my freedom fries.
I hate stupid boycotts. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
I read that an Italian and a Spanish paper printed them as well :) |
and in Iceland, Switzerland, and the Netherlands.:)
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Hmmm this is all so strangely familiar for some reason .... oh yes I remember now.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004...ain593870.shtml
I guess the jews don't have as much leverage in europe ... or perhaps they just didn't care as much.
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Didn't get this: "they=Jews"? That is, your comment is refering to the fact that Israel was far more moderate in its response to provocation?
On that matter, so was Russia, when Denmark "allowed" a private organization to host the "World Chechen Conference" and later refused to extradict Zakayev.
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
I wonder where this would fall under Britain’s religious "hate" laws. |
In
related matters:
| quote: | LONDON (Reuters) - The government has suffered a surprise defeat in parliament over a planned law to outlaw religious hatred which critics said would erode the right to free speech.
In only its second defeat in parliament since coming to power in 1997, the government failed on Tuesday to overturn changes to the law recommended by the upper house of parliament.
Prime Minister Tony Blair sought new powers to ban people suspected of preaching religious hatred after the July 7 attacks when four bombers killed 52 people on London's transport network.
Government ministers have said sermons by radical Muslim preachers may have played a part in the attacks, carried out by young British Muslims.
The proposals, which formed a key part of Blair's election manifesto last May, will still become law, but with restrictions imposed by the upper house.
In one of the key votes on Tuesday, the government lost by a majority of one. The BBC reported that Blair did not cast his vote.
"I regret that on the question of the level of the bar at which prosecutions can be brought ... that the government lost tonight," interior minister Charles Clarke said.
The Racial and Religious Hatred Bill aims to give followers of all faiths equal protection from incitement and was designed in part to address an anomaly in current laws.
Under the existing Public Order Act, Jews and Sikhs have protection but not Christians, Muslims or members of other religions.
The new law aims not only to crack down on those who have targeted Muslims since the September 11 attacks on the United States but also to curb extremist Islamic preachers who urge their followers to commit violence.
The law's critics, which included comedian Rowan Atkinson, former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey, and civil rights groups, said it threatened free speech.
Rowan Atkinson, creator of the "Mr Bean" character, has said some of his sketches -- and others such as Monty Python's 1979 film "Life of Brian" -- could face prosecution if the original proposals had been passed. |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
If a caricature of a Christian God were made like this in America, it probably would have been technically allowed (due to freedom of speech) but the author would have received a lot of death threats and hostile disapproval from 99% of the public ... |
Oh good. You can continue hating the French then.:D |
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