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Jihad on Denmark - freedom of expression rears its ugly head once again... (pg. 25)
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| shaolin_Z |
Finally, the mainstream press cover Muslim dissent:
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Danish Muslims split over cartoons
By Thomas Buch-Andersen
Copenhagen, Denmark
Many moderate Muslims in Denmark have been shocked by the violence and deaths around the world prompted by the row over Danish cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad.
Rabih Azad-Ahmad, chair of the Multicultural Association, said the row had become too confrontational.
"Now, we have to demonstrate that we are proud of being Danish and that we are supporting Danish values," he said.
In an unexpected turn, the reaction to the attacks on Danish embassies could help promote integration in Denmark.
"I didn't know there were so many Muslims in Denmark who are supporting Western values," said Soren Espersen, an MP for the populist Danish People's Party.
| quote: | Politicians and the media have a tendency to see Muslims only as criminal, anti-social elements and as potential rapists
Open letter by Danish writers |
His comments mark a turnaround for the party, which has grown to be the country's third largest on a political platform of nationalism and xenophobia.
They are also likely to have been welcomed by a group of Danish writers who warned two months ago that the harsh tone in the national debate about Muslims and integration was comparable to Nazi rhetoric against Jews.
"Politicians and the media have a tendency to see Muslims only as criminal, anti-social elements and as potential rapists," the writers said in an open letter.
Wake-up call?
However, some of the strongest protests against the cartoons have come from imams who are part of the government's integration think tank.
"We want the newspaper to promise that this will never happen again, or this will never stop," said imam Ahmad Akkari of the Islamic Faith Society.
For the Danish integration minister, Rikke Hvilshoj, that stance is a wake-up call.
"It is very clear that we cannot trust the imams any longer if we want integration to succeed in Denmark," Mrs Hvilshoj says.
The conflict is also politically explosive for Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen.
The international crisis is his first big test after more than four years in office.
Former spin doctor and political commentator Peter Mogensen warned that if the violence does not stop soon, Mr Rasmussen could lose his job.
"The prospects of further escalation, of terrorist attack against Danish property and beheadings of Danes on al-Jazeera would make the current situation look like a picnic," Mr Mogensen said.
The opposition has also accused the prime minister is acting too late.
No more apologies
Nonetheless, Mr Rasmussen's government and its diplomats are working around the clock to control the damage.
Fifteen Muslim countries, from Algeria to Pakistan, are boycotting Danish goods. So far, nearly 200 jobs have been lost in Denmark.
More jobs could be on the line if the boycotts continue, as Denmark's exports to the Arab world are worth almost $2.6 billion (£1.5 billion) a year.
While most Danish Muslims are satisfied by the apology already issued by Jyllands-Posten, the newspaper that first published the cartoons, half of Danes still think that the paper could do more to appease the Arab world.
Editor-in-chief Carsten Juste remains firm. "We are sorry for any offence caused by the drawings, but we cannot apologise for freedom of expression," he said.
Since 2003, Denmark has supported a broad range of democratic projects and initiatives across the Arab world.
It is unclear how many of those countries will care to listen any longer. So far, all trips by Danish staff connected to these projects have been put on hold.
For many Danes the past two weeks have been surreal.
Since the time when many Danes helped thousands of Jews to safety from German-occupied Denmark in World War II, the Scandinavian country has had a reputation for being peace-loving and harmless.
That might still be true. But the perception among millions of Muslims has changed. And that will take years to bring back to balance. |
Source: BBC |
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| HardTranceProd |
Question for trancaholic.
In Denmark, are Muslims as a group disliked by Danes? I understand there's no formal (de-jure) discrimination, but is there de-facto discrimination and fear? |
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
This thread is getting too serious.
DISCLAIMER! If you're easily offended by non PC jokes, don't read
Leave a Message in the Anonymous Muslim Man Complaint Box
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:eek: :nervous: :eek: :nervous: Talk about pwn3d: I just sent this little joke to my buddies on a distribution list.... and after hitting "send", I realized that one of the people on the list is my Pakistani Muslim buddy.... :eek:
Man... he'll probably not be very happy. :( I'm such a stupid dick...:mad:
I mean he's a cool kid but I totally realize that this was in poor taste. I wrote an "I'm sorry letter" right after - but do you think it's enough? I really didn't want to offend him - he's a really good guy. Man, I feel terrible...:( What should I do? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
:eek: :nervous: :eek: :nervous: Talk about pwn3d: I just sent this little joke to my buddies on a distribution list.... and after hitting "send", I realized that one of the people on the list is my Pakistani Muslim buddy.... :eek:
Man... he'll probably not be very happy. :( I'm such a stupid dick...:mad: |
Just tell him they were jokes and to calm the down. |
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| emc^2 |
| I called him - he laughed it off. Yet I still feel like a dick. :( |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
I called him - he laughed it off. Yet I still feel like a dick. :( |
Unfortunately not a lot of people have a sense of humour like your buddy.
I was going to make a joke about you in context of Sharia law but I'm like, I crossed the line deep enough :p |
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| trancaholic |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
In Denmark, are Muslims as a group disliked by Danes? I understand there's no formal (de-jure) discrimination, but is there de-facto discrimination and fear? |
Short answer: Yes, there's discrimination and fear. Is it widespread? No.
Longer answer: Most ethnic Danes don't know any Muslims personally, as these are mostly living in isolated suburbs, but when Danes encounter Muslims in their daily life, they're treated pretty much the same as anyone else.
However, Danmark, like France, is a darned tough country to get intimate with, and if your name isn't a traditional Danish name, your job-application might be dropped from consideration immediately. Also, if you wear a hijab, there are some jobs that you won't get. These discriminations are not discriminations against Muslims, per se, as any kind of foreign name can disqualify you, and most shops have specific requirements for potential employees (McDonald's used to require a picture of you before even considering hiring you, and our Wal-Mart won't hire guys with long hair).
Furthermore, Danes like to live in a society where everyone gets the exact same opportunities - and we pay the taxes required! We prefer to err on the side of positive discrimination, though, so Muslims, gays, handicapped, and other minority groups are pretty well provided for in terms of rights, and are for the most part treated politely. Just don't expect us to get very friendly with them.
As to fear, it's mostly confined to the 50+ part of the population. Coincidentally, these people also constitute the voter base for the Danish People's Party. I'll guess that about 5% are purely xenophobic.
Those of us who know some Muslims personally, of course don't have problems with them. Moderate ones, that is. Right now pretty much everyone is having a beef with the Travelling Imams, and gangs of Arab youth, who are breaking the law whenever the feel like it.
| quote: | Originally posted by St_Andrew
Well I suppose the Iranian newspaper could send some *really* bad ones which might make Jyllands-posten look aweful in the western world and hence undermining the cause here. But yeah it would suck if they didn't publish them :whip: |
I just saw that a French weekly had published the 12 cartoons today, along with a new one of their own creation. The editor has promised to print the Iranian ones next week - not as a show of support, but to destroy the Iranians' point. Let's see if he survives until next week.
Anyway, I'm starting to forgive the French for their "Non".
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Finally, the mainstream press cover Muslim dissent:
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The *foreign* press you mean ;) I've tried to include information about all activity in this thread.
Anyway, the reporter who wrote this article is associated with the Danish national broadcasting company, and they're anti-government. And it shows.
So I just thought I would correct a few misrepresentations below:
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"Politicians and the media have a tendency to see Muslims only as criminal, anti-social elements and as potential rapists," the writers said in an open letter.
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This is such a beautiful example of the hypocracy of the left. They take an entire group of professionals and accuse them of racism.
These writers/intellectuals are known as "culture radicals" in Denmark, and they are terrible biggots. Just needed to add that.:)
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However, some of the strongest protests against the cartoons have come from imams who are part of the government's integration think tank.
"We want the newspaper to promise that this will never happen again, or this will never stop," said imam Ahmad Akkari of the Islamic Faith Society. |
Incidentally also one of the Travelling Imams, which was pretty much why our Integration minister (foolishly, I might add) said
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"It is very clear that we cannot trust the imams any longer if we want integration to succeed in Denmark," Mrs Hvilshoj says.
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| quote: |
The conflict is also politically explosive for Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen.
The international crisis is his first big test after more than four years in office. |
Except for being head negotiator of the entire EU expansion into Eastern Europe.
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While most Danish Muslims are satisfied by the apology already issued by Jyllands-Posten, the newspaper that first published the cartoons, half of Danes still think that the paper could do more to appease the Arab world. |
I wonder what survey he's referring to? The only one I've seen had 42% thinking that JP should apologize completely, 46% that it shouldn't have apologized at all, and that came out more than a week ago.:conf:
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Since 2003, Denmark has supported a broad range of democratic projects and initiatives across the Arab world.
It is unclear how many of those countries will care to listen any longer. |
Which will be these countries problem, as far as I can see.
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For many Danes the past two weeks have been surreal.
Since the time when many Danes helped thousands of Jews to safety from German-occupied Denmark in World War II, the Scandinavian country has had a reputation for being peace-loving and harmless.
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Not "many" Danes.
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That might still be true. But the perception among millions of Muslims has changed. And that will take years to bring back to balance. |
Unlike the few weeks that it will take Danes to forget having been held hostage by fundamentalists intend on destroying one of their chief values.:rolleyes: |
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| InterMilan31 |
| tranceaholic your a great source for contribution to this thread...helps me out alot as I would like to know whats going on in Denmark as for your points Im completly agreeing on them so far. |
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| shaolin_Z |
trancaholic: One thing, when you're arguing about points in an article I posted, please try not to include | quote: | | Originally posted by shaolin_Z |
since it's the article you're quoting and not me ;). Even I got confused for a sec while reading your post. I was like, :conf: "did I say that" and then I realize "oh, it's the article!" :p |
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| emc^2 |
Finaly, a voice of reason in the insane asylum:
| quote: | Reason and religion can learn to co-exist
TARIQ RAMADAN
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
I was in Copenhagen in October when the cartoons affair started to provoke demonstrations in Denmark. Interviewed by a journalist of the newspaper that first published the caricatures of the Prophet, the man told me how intense the debates among his fellow journalists were. He told me about the discomfort many of them were feeling about this issue and how they had been surprised by the strong reaction of Muslims and of Arab embassies in the country.
At that time, it seemed the tension was not likely to cross the Danish borders. And, to the Danish Muslims who were denouncing the publication as racist -- a provocation that would be used by the country's growing right wing -- my advice was to avoid reacting emotionally, to try to explain quietly why these cartoons were hurting them, and neither to demonstrate nor to take the risk of activating mass movements that would be impossible to master.
Everything seemed to be solved; so, three months later, why has the controversy burst into flames? A few Danish Muslims, it seems, visited some Middle Eastern countries and stirred up resentment. In turn, some Arab governments, happy to find a kind of Islamic legitimacy in the sight of their own people, presented themselves as the champions of the great cause. This was enough for some politicians, intellectuals, and journalists in the West, to present themselves as the champions of freedom of expression and the resistance fighters to religious obscurantism.
In short, it became a simplistic polarization: an alleged clash of two civilizations -- the religious and the liberal. Muslims want apologies, some are attacking European interests and others threaten to attack people. Western governments, intellectuals and journalists refuse to bend under the threats, and certain media added to the controversy by publishing the cartoons again. Most of the world simply wants the zaniness to end.
What matters, now, is to find a way to get out of the infernal circle and to ask everyone to stop putting fuel on the fire, in order eventually to open a serious, and serene debate.
This affair does not symbolize the confrontation between the principles of Enlightenment and those of religion, nor a fracture between the West and Islam. Rather, it is between those who, in both universes, are able to assert what they stand for, whether in the name of a faith or of reason, and balance it with appreciation of the other, and, on the other hand, those who are driven by exclusive certainties, blind passions, reductive perceptions of the other and hasty conclusions. These character traits are shared by some intellectuals, religious scholars, journalists and ordinary people on both sides.
It is strictly forbidden in Islam to represent the Prophet in any way. If, moreover, one adds clumsy confusions and insults, as it was perceived by Muslims in the Prophet's caricature (drawn with a turban in a form of a bomb), one can understand the nature of the shock and the rejection that was expressed by large segments of the Muslim communities around the world. However, it necessary for Muslims not to forget that Western societies, for the past three centuries, have become used to derision, irony and criticism toward religious symbols -- the Pope, Jesus Christ, and even God. Even though Muslims do not share this attitude, it is imperative that they learn to keep an intellectual critical distance while facing such provocations, and that they do not let themselves be driven by passionate zeal and fervour, which are never advisable.
Facing such cartoons, it would have been, and it remains, preferable for Muslims to expose their grievances and their values to the large public without uproar and then to wait until a better conjuncture makes it possible to open a serene debate. What is welling up today from within the Muslim communities is as excessive as it is insane: To be obsessed with apologies; to call for a boycott of European products, even the threats of physical or armed reprisals are totally excessive, and these excesses must be rejected and condemned.
On the other hand, to invoke the right for free expression, to give oneself the right to say anything in any way against anybody is irresponsible as well: first, because it is not true that everything is permitted in the name of freedom of expression. Each country has its laws that set a framework that allows, for instance, condemnation of statements of hate. Racial or religious insults are not treated the same way in every Western society. Within a similar legal framework, each country has its own memory and its own sensitivity, and wisdom requires people to acknowledge and respect that reality.
Western societies have changed and the Muslim presence has naturally changed this collective sensitivity. Instead of being obsessed with laws and rights, would it be not better to call the citizens to a more responsible use of the freedom of expression that takes into account the different sensitivities that compose our contemporary societies? It is not a matter to add laws and to restrain the scope of free speech. It is simply to call every conscience to use one's rights in a more respectful way. It is more a matter of nurturing a sense of civic responsibility than to impose legislation. Muslim citizens are not asking for more censorship but for more respect.
We are at the crossroad. It is time that the women and men who reject the wrong-headed divisions between two worlds start building bridges between the two universes, sharing common values. They must assert the right to freedom of expression and, at the same time, recommend the sense of measure as to its use. We need them to promote an open and self-critical approach, refusing the exclusive truths and the narrow-minded binary visions of the world.
We are in dire need of mutual trust. The crises provoked by these cartoons show us how the worst can be possible, out of apparently nothing, between the two universes when they become deaf to each other and are tempted to define themselves against the other.
Tariq Ramadan is a visiting professor at St. Antony's College, Oxford. He is chairman of the European Muslim Network think-tank and author of Western Muslims and the Future of Islam.
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...ialComment/home |
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| Dopey |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
It's almost akin to Europe ignoring Churchill's warnings about Hitler.
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Yet when Hitler marched his toy soldiers to the banks of the Rhine, and France called older brother to ask what to do, Churchill did nothing. I believe if Hamas or Iran march to any border they will be shot at. |
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dopey
Yet when Hitler marched his toy soldiers to the banks of the Rhine, and France called older brother to ask what to do, Churchill did nothing. I believe if Hamas or Iran march to any border they will be shot at. |
Love your quote - the one from palestinian.
Dickwad :mad: |
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