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The FIFA 2018 World Cup Thread (pg. 10)
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| rdevito |
| England is one yellow card ahead of Belgium. Curious to see these teams clashing. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| That was highly enjoyable. Still not convinced by our possession game though. Panama were a team of useless cloggers, and it was obvious from minute one that they were out of their depth. Still, we are actually beating teams who are worse than us, which is something of a novelty. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
So because a young nation is "catching up" with one with a far longer and more prestigious history, it's the younger nation with the better tradition? Utter bollocks. You know it is, but you're too much of a self-styled nice guy to admit you might have said something culturally insensitive. |
I do admit when I make a mistake, such as when I said I should've specified I'm not taking much of last century into consideration because the facts have changed. But, having said that, today's Senegal are the better team when confronted against today's Poland and, while Senegal have reached the quarterfinals after TA was created, you'd have to be in your forties to remember the Poland you're speaking of. These are the facts.
This means today's Poland aren't exactly reaping the benefits of their Golden Era, whereas most Senegalese players have seen the previous generation - and here we are, with Senegal much closer to the knockout stage than Poland.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
If "tradition" means anything, it's consistent trans-generational qualities of a people defined by culture and/or geography. Poland has changed economically since 1990, but fundamentally all Poles believe it is the same country and the same culture as it was under Communism. |
Exactly! And, football wise, whatever qualities the old Polish squad had, the chain is broken and today's team didn't seem to have inherited much, if anything!
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Your point about the USSR or Yugoslavia is a false equivalence, because those were countries that only formed in the early 20th century out of a geographically and culturally broad array of territories, and dissolved back into those diverse territories after the fall of the Berlin Wall. It makes sense to say that these nations became "altogether different entities", but it doesn't make sense with Poland. |
And that's why I posted data from Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, and with some reluctance, both halves of the old Czechoslovakia.
If I could have filtered them in the elo rating graphs, I would have.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Nobody discounts periods of sporting achievement or failure based on the economic conditions of a nation at that time. Except you, when you realise you've dropped a bollock. |
I'm not discounting anything, I'm saying it's no longer relevant to the performance of the current squad. If anything, you're the one who seems to be overvaluing Poland's past achievements in order to compare them favourable to a country that has, with fewer resources and a much restricted talent pool, defeated them.
Have I said Poland never reached the semifinals? No. Have I said former achievements don't count? No. Have I said whatever Poland has reaped in the past no longer has had little (if any) impact on the current squad, because circumstances have changed? Yes, this is my point.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
The facts are self-evident. Poland have been to many more World Cups and have progressed much further in the World Cup than Senegal. You appear to be trying to make some kind of "pound for pound" argument for Senegal, that they are over-achieving relative to Poland. But that isn't "tradition". And discounting anything before 1990 and focusing only on recent history when trying to determine "tradition" is completely oxymoronic, as far as I'm concerned. |
Then what do you call the structures and opportunities a good team passes down to the following generations? If you wouldn't call that a (football) tradition, feel free to swap "tradition" for the word of your choice. That's clearly what I meant, I've mentioned that the team was an altogether different entity, but you're behaving as if I had said perogi no longer existed or something.
Senegal have indeed inherited a much better situation from the 2002 players than today's Poland have been given by players that peaked before we were both born. Therefore, a much better football tradition. |
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| Lira |
| Poland didn't really have to corroborate my point by becoming the first European team eliminated from the tournament, but this is what I was talking about :( |
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| SYSTEM-J |
I can only assume this is a language barrier issue, because "tradition" or "traditional" has very strong connotations of long-standing history. You wouldn't use it to describe sporting infrastructure that has been put in place in the last couple of decades. However, I still have my suspicions you simply didn't know about those two semi-final appearances when you made your first post and just assumed Poland had never bettered Senegal's quarter-final appearance.
Either way, they were crap tonight. I actually thought they were going to have a strong tournament with their spine of Champion's League players, but they looked slow, tired and seriously short of ideas on how to get the ball to Lewandowski. Colombia look pretty tasty though. With Rodriguez back and 11 men on the pitch, I would expect them to send Senegal on the next plane home after Poland, and I'm hoping England don't have to play them in the Round of 16. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I can only assume this is a language barrier issue, because "tradition" or "traditional" has very strong connotations of long-standing history. You wouldn't use it to describe sporting infrastructure that has been put in place in the last couple of decades. However, I still have my suspicions you simply didn't know about those two semi-final appearances when you made your first post and just assumed Poland had never bettered Senegal's quarter-final appearance. |
Believe me, had I not known about it, I'd have admitted even if it made me look like a fool, like that one time I had a brainfart and forgot about the link between Chicago house and Detroit techno (I'm sure I was debating you and some German kid). Not sure what I was on about then :p
Speaking of "what was I thinking?!" situations, I have to admit Group H took me by surprise: I'd have sworn Japan was the weakest link, yet they're heading the group (by "Fair Play" points, but they are). Having a player sent off in the first minutes clearly did Colombia no favours, but still, I wonder if Colombia and Senegal can still make it to the round of 16 as I had imagined... |
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| wotyzoid |
Typical case of someone misusing a word and Jack pouncing on the opportunity. You dont need a PhD to decipher lira meant Senegal was playing better football.
Glad you kids sorted it out, though. Hi five. |
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| Jon_Snow |
| For god sakes Lira stop over analyzing everything. One Jack is more than enough. |
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| LoveHate |
| quote: | Originally posted by wotyzoid
? I didn't say anything. |
I felt like you were mocking me bruh |
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| wotyzoid |
| How? I literally said nothing after you responded to my original comment. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by wotyzoid
Typical case of someone misusing a word and Jack pouncing on the opportunity. You dont need a PhD to decipher lira meant Senegal was playing better football.
Glad you kids sorted it out, though. Hi five. |
It's a good thing though. I like to talk about things on TA, Jack included, because it helps me hone my debating skills, and that's fundamental in my field :)
I mean, what good is talking to someone who just says "yes yes" to your every word? :p
| quote: | Originally posted by Jon_Snow
For god sakes Lira stop over analyzing everything. |
DID YOU JUST OVERANALYSE MY OVERANALYSIS!? :mad: :D |
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