|
Please post a sample of a bad Tiesto mix (pg. 13)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| isoterra |
| quote: | Originally posted by Armada_hk
personally i dont understand why you guys post threads like this in the first place..If you that much better then how come no ones ever heard of you? Tiesto became famous because he was a good dj, regardless of whether he still is. If he sucks now then he will slip out of the publics attention and dissapear. |
he posted the thread cos he wanted to hear bad tiesto transitions
lol |
|
|
| isoterra |
| quote: | Originally posted by A.J.
Perhaps you should follow your own words. |
+1 (again :p ) |
|
|
| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
You ignore my comment that art is not a science
|
Actually, it is. That's how standards get developed.
What is music, really, but nothing more than math.
There are absolutes. There are universal truisms. Nothing is entirely subjective. There's no such thing as relativism.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I am a musician. I've played Penderecki's Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima in an orchestra conducted by Krzysztof himself. Great composer, terrible conductor by the way.
|
For a musician, you are one of the most remarkably dense musicians I have ever encountered.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
You know what I meant. Their productions, or the styles that they were hammering back then. Northern Exposure III made it big in 1994 because of marketing? Right....
|
No, Northern Exposure III made it big in 99 because of marketing.
You're thinking of Northern Exposure II, which actually made it big in 97 because of marketing.
Funny.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Again you are wrongly assigning objective values to music.
|
what else is there?
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
So you think that Gouryella became a big hit in 1999 because of the powerful corporate marketing behind superstar pop DJs such as Ferry and Tiësto?
|
Gouryella became a big hit in 99 because it was following the herd of anthem trance. It raped a formula introduced three years previously which sucked in all the normal people who usually digest a steady diet of shiny pop tunes, crossing over into this new "trance" music which no longer sounded repetitive, long and unwieldy, but dumbed itself down to their sake through idiotic fanfares and memorable melodies.
Slam dunk. It's like releasing a disco record in 78. You just couldn't go wrong with that formula back then, because there was a steady influx of newbs who would eat anything you threw at them so long as it had a sing-a-long melody.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I insist on the analogy because of the cultural ethos behind the music, not because of their quality.
|
Actually, I think you just take it personally. Gotta defend the home turf, after all.
You should've just said "He may be a no-talent assclown, but he's OUR no-talent assclown. And I will like his Fisherprice trance music because it's mandated by law." I'd go with that.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I would NEVER say that the quality of trance has ever been even close to the old classics, music-wise....my comparison is strictly cultural.
|
Culturally, you don't have much of a leg to stand on either. Trance music in its current state is musical junk food; disposable and ultimately unfulfilling. But that's okay. It's supposed to be. That's why it's so simple and cheap to make. If you want to attach something so devoid of worth and merit to your culture, go right ahead. It might make you wackier than Japan, however.
Come on, just admit it. Things are so much easier if you just accept the facts and say "oh well"....and move on. That's what I do. Fighting it like that is only going to cost you further aggravation...and a much longer thread.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
It's all about context. Gouryella sounds generic now
|
It sounded generic then. They utilized the same saw wave patch that Agnelli & Nelson and Absolom used.
how original!
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
The degeneration of the formula into dull, generic constrained music
|
Was already in motion back in February, 1998. It just took you guys something like FIVE ING YEARS LONGER than me to get sick of it....but realisticall, it had worn out its welcome for most trance veterans in the span of about 6 weeks in the winter and spring of 97/98...and then they all started leaving. The only thing keeping the scene alive, in fact, were the newbies. But the newbs were coming into the thing at a rate of about 10:1 versus older trance lovers getting repulsed and leaving. Yeah, I remember seeing Oakenfold on his Tranceport tour. God that was awful. Oh, and at the end of the year I went to see Digweed, Seaman, and other brit superstars in a hockey arena in Victoria....to see if things had gotten better. They hadn't. I believe that was the last trance "show" I attended.
(btw: Dave Seaman was editor of mixmag back then. He controlled the content like a bottleneck. Guess who his best friends were? ..Sasha, Digweed, Oakenfold, Darey....they just propped each other up like sheeves of corn. They completely controlled the british dance industry for about three years. Like a cartel, nothing else got in or out without their approval...this same kind of cliquism exists today in the high end of most dance music circles. Need I tell you who controls the Dutch scene? Do they do this for quality musicianship? Hell no. It's not about music, it's about money and promotion).
Generally, the life expectancy for anyone getting involved in the scene is about nine months before they burn out or find out the music really isn't that interesting at all. So like a pyramid scheme, all the CD sales and DJ tours depend on the newbs to keep it going, because the veterans either
1) Get wise and stop supporting them
2) leave
which means no real return. So any system that refuses to evolve is obviously not sustainable, which is where the 2001-2002 crash comes from. It had reached critical mass, and the saturation point meant there's no one coming in. it's been festering ever since.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
My only point is that Dutch cheese has a different and recognizable taste from French cheese and from Swedish cheese and from Swiss cheese and so on. If your taste buds are not that developed (or your ear is not that trained) to tell the difference then tough luck. You hate the cultural aesthetic card because you don't understand it.
|
No, I hate the cultural esthetics card because it reeks of "You don't get it, man. You just don't get it. You have to be one of us." That's not an argument, that's called throwing a hissy fit. Here are some other arguments you can use:
1) Parents just don't understand
2) If I have to explain it to you, you won't understand it
3) I can't tell you because you don't know. You don't know because I can't tell you.
4) You don't know me! You don't know me! I can listen to whatever I want. JER-RY! JER-RY! JER-RY!
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I don't have time to give you a history lesson. Google it up. Twilo was so ed up that the club manager was hiding clubbers that had OD'd in private ambulances.
|
Is that all? Drug overdoses? So what. Every club has that. That's not ed up. ed up is firing plasticine bullets out of a wind cannon at people. ed up is dropping seven cans of sheep's blood all over the dance floor. ed up is not playing any music for two hours (but recording all the noises in the club), and then playing all of it back as music.
ed up is ontological anarchy. Where nothing is true and everything is permitted, and the only thng that exists is the sense of self. The TAZ. Twilo was just a dirty club running drugs under the table. That's why it got shut down. Because it was a legitimate commercial enterprise that broke the law. See? See? It has the same problem you have: It lied to itself and to others. It pretended it was something its not.
True ontological anarchy consciously negates the law, so it fosters no illusions about what it is. It doesn't commit crimes, it IS crime.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I was referring, of course, to your own definition of TAZ.
|
That's not the definition of TAZ. That's a funny little comment I made in a comic strip ripped off from Jack Chick. It holds no authority on the matter.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
So you said that TAZ was replaced by PLUR, so that's why I ask if what I experienced then was PLUR and not TAZ. hehehe.
|
Probably. PLUR is an idealistically naive delusion and a lie, just like your esthetics of dutch trance.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Well, Daft Punk is one of my favorite bands ever. I love music that DOESN'T take itself too seriously as well. Anything from italo disco to DJ Assault and John B. Liquid funk, Miami bass, drill & bass, nu jazz, whatever's good. I'm never stuck with a single genre...
|
heh.
The correct answer was actually "good music".
All else follows.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I don't like purists in either side of the spectrum. Not that analytical and theoretical deconstruction is not useful for expanding one's knowledge of music, and some people do enjoy doing this. But I agree that the important thing is enjoying the music.
|
I've been surrounded by musical intellectuals my entire life, and they've all really only taught me one thing:
intellectuals are the stupidest people I know.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Believe it or not, but it is possible for people to enjoy this. Complexity is always interesting if you're able to understand it.
|
Nooooo...not quite. Because the music is not an end in itself. They use it as a tool. They don't actually enjoy the music, they enjoy what it can do for them, what it can assert for them, what it can help them differentiate from others as a poignant symbol of their individuality.
They wouldn't like it if it wasn't complex. That's an important piece of the picture.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
But I'm sorry, I'm talking as a musician here, not as a political scientist.
|
Then write more good better. Drop the shenanigans.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
But I repeat that you don't understand my musical context or perspective simply we got into this from different backgrounds. Nothing wrong with that. |
If I don't understand you, then that's your fault. If the communication breaks down, then it's up to the communicator to find a better way of communicating. It's not my inability to understand you. I understand you perfectly. It's your inability to convey your ideas in a convincing fashion. Stringing together polispeak words ain't gonna cut the mustard bub. So I must conclude that either you have a limited grasp of the english language, or maybe you really have no answer for me. At either rate, your claim is still highly dubious. I'm still not convinced.
You have yet to show me one iota of evidence for the highly complicated and masterful task of "reading the crowd".
I'm waiting. |
|
|
| dj_bas |
Lol at this whole thread, there's honesly no point in arguing about Tiesto's mixing.
Those that love him will defend him to the death, and those that hate him will do the opposite. Every DJ ever makes mistakes, but unfortunately for Tiesto he gets so much coverage that if he makes a mistake everyone's all over his ass about it. Him being #1 just launched him into this idol like state that he doesn't deserve. Just because he was #1 doesn't make him any "better" of a dj.
On a different note, how anyone can trainwreck using cds is beyond me. |
|
|
| Axolotyl |
Poise 7/10
Spirit 9/10
Grammar 8/10
Use of Quote Function 9/10
Relevance to Topic 5/10 |
|
|
| Clovis86 |
| quote: | Originally posted by isoterra
^ i (and i'm guessing AJ too) interpreted that as "if you don't care about mixing not being spot on perfect all the time then you're not a true edm fan". as of course, there's a big difference between: a)occasionally mis-cueing/letting beats slip, and b) not attempting to mix whatsoever... although you don't need me to point that out to you |
I dont mind a DJ ing up...Sasha s up with Ableton...I dunno how he does it, maybe hes too ed on drugs to realise his track is warped wrong or whatever, or maybe Ableton bugged (I have warped tracks in 5, saved them...and then open them again and they are magically 'un warped). But at least he CARES. Because when he s up he hates himself for it. You can see it on his face. He wants to know wtf happened...what he did wrong.
Tiesto smiles and waves at people while the beats slide off. He lets it get worse and worse and then just slams the next track in. Or fades out before it becomes a total wreck and then fades in the next track. And this is done at a concert designed specifically for him, trumping him as the world's #1 and greatest DJ. If you cannot see the utter ridiculous bull in that, you're a moron. I saw him do it with my own ing eyes.
He doesnt CARE. He's a ing muppet. |
|
|
| SYSTEM-J |
Insults and a decade of rave culture Vs. Long words and a degree in music.
I can see this one going on forever, and eventually dying out when the two parties realise that they have both sabotaged good arguments by pressing it too far and discredited their own standing.
Ish: you're behaving incredibly hypocritically. You're attacking an argument based on the it's over-eloquent nature, when you simply have "" and "you are stupid" in place of "ethos" and "aesthetic". You're drenching every post in offensive bull to try and hammer a point home, but it's just tripping you back up.
Pio: Meanwhile, you've really taken this too far into intellectualism for its own good. There are clear weaknesses with Ishkur's argument, but you're completely over-looking them and and applying major music theory to records made by people who have probably never had any formal music training. |
|
|
| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Actually, it is. That's how standards get developed.
What is music, really, but nothing more than math.
There are absolutes. There are universal truisms. Nothing is entirely subjective. There's no such thing as relativism. |
The math is limited to its structure and process, but you're ignoring the most important part: its humanism, its heart and soul. Those are the qualities that are entirely subjective.
| quote: | | For a musician, you are one of the most remarkably dense musicians I have ever encountered. |
You'd be surprised.
| quote: | No, Northern Exposure III made it big in 99 because of marketing.
You're thinking of Northern Exposure II, which actually made it big in 97 because of marketing.
Funny. |
You're right. I got them mixed up and didn't verify that fact.
| quote: | Gouryella became a big hit in 99 because it was following the herd of anthem trance. It raped a formula introduced three years previously which sucked in all the normal people who usually digest a steady diet of shiny pop tunes, crossing over into this new "trance" music which no longer sounded repetitive, long and unwieldy, but dumbed itself down to their sake through idiotic fanfares and memorable melodies.
Slam dunk. It's like releasing a disco record in 78. You just couldn't go wrong with that formula back then, because there was a steady influx of newbs who would eat anything you threw at them so long as it had a sing-a-long melody. |
I never said it was original in its formula, of course it wasn't. But it took the Dutch ethos to another level by having such a huge impact in the global edm scene.
| quote: | Culturally, you don't have much of a leg to stand on either. Trance music in its current state is musical junk food; disposable and ultimately unfulfilling. But that's okay. It's supposed to be. That's why it's so simple and cheap to make. If you want to attach something so devoid of worth and merit to your culture, go right ahead. It might make you wackier than Japan, however.
Come on, just admit it. Things are so much easier if you just accept the facts and say "oh well"....and move on. That's what I do. Fighting it like that is only going to cost you further aggravation...and a much longer thread. |
Yes, trance in its current state. I completely agree with those facts, and so does Tiësto to a certain degree. That's why you should check out his latest set from Prague: lots of house, not too many long breakdowns at all.
I know that you're going to say that the trance formula was just as bad in 1999 and that we just got tired of it, and in respect to the burnout effect there's also some truth to that. But to some of us, the sound was refreshing and silly fun....just like Dutch wood clogs or the Red Light District. I've never said that trance deserved the respect of the classics. The whole point of my argument is that people actually had fun with that formula for reasons other than marketing, brainwashing, and cluelessness. Just like the way you enjoy your euro dance. Even those long breakdowns were fun.
| quote: | It sounded generic then. They utilized the same saw wave patch that Agnelli & Nelson and Absolom used.
how original! |
It was all about the rolling bassline and the cheesy, catchy melody. Not quite the same effect bestowed by El Nino.
| quote: | Was already in motion back in February, 1998. It just took you guys something like FIVE ING YEARS LONGER than me to get sick of it....but realisticall, it had worn out its welcome for most trance veterans in the span of about 6 weeks in the winter and spring of 97/98...and then they all started leaving. The only thing keeping the scene alive, in fact, were the newbies. But the newbs were coming into the thing at a rate of about 10:1 versus older trance lovers getting repulsed and leaving. Yeah, I remember seeing Oakenfold on his Tranceport tour. God that was awful. Oh, and at the end of the year I went to see Digweed, Seaman, and other brit superstars in a hockey arena in Victoria....to see if things had gotten better. They hadn't. I believe that was the last trance "show" I attended.
(btw: Dave Seaman was editor of mixmag back then. He controlled the content like a bottleneck. Guess who his best friends were? ..Sasha, Digweed, Oakenfold, Darey....they just propped each other up like sheeves of corn. They completely controlled the british dance industry for about three years. Like a cartel, nothing else got in or out without their approval...this same kind of cliquism exists today in the high end of most dance music circles. Need I tell you who controls the Dutch scene? Do they do this for quality musicianship? Hell no. It's not about music, it's about money and promotion). |
And back in 1997/1998 I was one of those newbies that trumped the trance scene. I'm not ashamed to admit it, I had fun, and I have grown out of it.
| quote: | Generally, the life expectancy for anyone getting involved in the scene is about nine months before they burn out or find out the music really isn't that interesting at all. So like a pyramid scheme, all the CD sales and DJ tours depend on the newbs to keep it going, because the veterans either
1) Get wise and stop supporting them
2) leave
which means no real return. So any system that refuses to evolve is obviously not sustainable, which is where the 2001-2002 crash comes from. It had reached critical mass, and the saturation point meant there's no one coming in. it's been festering ever since.
|
9 months? I don't know how you come up with those assumptions, but it's not what I've encountered with the trance crackers I know in four different continents. People's personal taste evolve, it's a natural process. But it doesn't mean they dismiss a whole genre because they've been enlightened or something.
| quote: | No, I hate the cultural esthetics card because it reeks of "You don't get it, man. You just don't get it. You have to be one of us." That's not an argument, that's called throwing a hissy fit. Here are some other arguments you can use:
1) Parents just don't understand
2) If I have to explain it to you, you won't understand it
3) I can't tell you because you don't know. You don't know because I can't tell you.
4) You don't know me! You don't know me! I can listen to whatever I want. JER-RY! JER-RY! JER-RY! |
Amusing, but that's not what I'm trying to do. You've even acknowledged cultural aesthetics when talking about trance or edm in general. That's exactly what you're doing with the whole "trance is for crackers that can't dance because it has no African flavor" argument, and you're right. However, there are ethnic differences in musical aesthetics from Sweden to Italy to Germany to Spain that are all easily verifiable. Of course, globalization has brought down many of those cultural barriers and made them harder to identify, but in some respects there are many subtleties that are still evident, such as the different approach to melody by the Dutch and the German producers.
| quote: | Is that all? Drug overdoses? So what. Every club has that. That's not ed up. ed up is firing plasticine bullets out of a wind cannon at people. ed up is dropping seven cans of sheep's blood all over the dance floor. ed up is not playing any music for two hours (but recording all the noises in the club), and then playing all of it back as music.
ed up is ontological anarchy. Where nothing is true and everything is permitted, and the only thng that exists is the sense of self. The TAZ. Twilo was just a dirty club running drugs under the table. That's why it got shut down. Because it was a legitimate commercial enterprise that broke the law. See? See? It has the same problem you have: It lied to itself and to others. It pretended it was something its not.
True ontological anarchy consciously negates the law, so it fosters no illusions about what it is. It doesn't commit crimes, it IS crime. |
That's great, but I'm not impressed. I prefer the first raves I went to in exotic caves, tropical rainforests, secluded beaches, and abandoned train tunnels. This past year I went through the surreal experience of witnessing the arrival of a dozen illegal immigrants in a compact swift boat at the shore of a secluded beach party to the rhythms of neurofunk and techstep. Dancing and having fun to good music, that's all that matters to me, whether its PLUR or TAZ, who cares.
| quote: | That's not the definition of TAZ. That's a funny little comment I made in a comic strip ripped off from Jack Chick. It holds no authority on the matter.
Probably. PLUR is an idealistically naive delusion and a lie, just like your esthetics of dutch trance. |
This is just becoming repetitive.
| quote: | Nooooo...not quite. Because the music is not an end in itself. They use it as a tool. They don't actually enjoy the music, they enjoy what it can do for them, what it can assert for them, what it can help them differentiate from others as a poignant symbol of their individuality.
They wouldn't like it if it wasn't complex. That's an important piece of the picture. |
Yes, it's all part of the fun of intellectual masturbation for some people. We're basically saying the same thing in different ways.
| quote: | If I don't understand you, then that's your fault. If the communication breaks down, then it's up to the communicator to find a better way of communicating. It's not my inability to understand you. I understand you perfectly. It's your inability to convey your ideas in a convincing fashion. Stringing together polispeak words ain't gonna cut the mustard bub. So I must conclude that either you have a limited grasp of the english language, or maybe you really have no answer for me. At either rate, your claim is still highly dubious. I'm still not convinced.
You have yet to show me one iota of evidence for the highly complicated and masterful task of "reading the crowd".
I'm waiting. |
We really diverged from the "reading the crowd" argument, but it doesn't matter. This is just a clash of personal appreciation that won't be resolved. I have no reason to make anything up, the fact is that this is how I actually appreciate certain things, I'm not asking you to accept anything. |
|
|
| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Insults and a decade of rave culture Vs. Long words and a degree in music.
I can see this one going on forever, and eventually dying out when the two parties realise that they have both sabotaged good arguments by pressing it too far and discredited their own standing.
Ish: you're behaving incredibly hypocritically. You're attacking an argument based on the it's over-eloquent nature, when you simply have "" and "you are stupid" in place of "ethos" and "aesthetic". You're drenching every post in offensive bull to try and hammer a point home, but it's just tripping you back up.
Pio: Meanwhile, you've really taken this too far into intellectualism for its own good. There are clear weaknesses with Ishkur's argument, but you're completely over-looking them and and applying major music theory to records made by people who have probably never had any formal music training. |
You're right. :) |
|
|
| Aiwendil |
| And now he's anthropomorphizing music... |
|
|
| JakeC |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis86
If you don't care about good mixing you're not a true EDM fan. |
Ron Hardy. |
|
|
| Clovis86 |
| quote: | Originally posted by JakeC
Ron Hardy. |
A ing men. |
|
|
|
|
