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Please post a sample of a bad Tiesto mix (pg. 6)
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| Azz3D |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
You may be thinking of someone called Yale Trance, who I haven't seen here for a long time. |
it's the same person
he just got his nick changed
also look at his custom status :nervous: |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Azz3D
it's the same person
he just got his nick changed
also look at his custom status :nervous: |
I give myself credit for remembering Yale Trance, but detract that for being stupid enough not to connect the two. |
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| Wasteland |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I agree with you in that playing a record, and then playing another record 6 minutes later is not impressive at all. As far as technical DJ skills go, probably not many trance or prog DJs would be in the top 100.
However, your analysis of crowd reading and track selection is deeply flawed, for the simple reason that you've never been into the aesthetics of epic/Central European trance and therefore, you don't really understand them. You see, once upon a time, people went to their local club and wanted to dance to the latest trance anthem, be it Love Stimulation, Stella, For An Angel, EL Niño, 1998, Gouryella.....those tracks were ing fun to dance to! It wasn't about DJ worshipping or the commercial marketing behind the anthem....it was simply the music that composed the track that made it silly and fun dancefloor material.
The problem with your analysis is that you start off from the premise that even those older tracks (from the 1993- early 1999 era) are worthless because of the buildup-snare roll-anthemic characteristics. Well, you have every right to have disliked those tracks back then, but some people did enjoy them in the dancefloor back then exclusively for their musical values. It was the first expression and edm revival of an old European (and definitely 'white cracker that can't dance') tradition: linear, melodic, structured and nuanced dance music.
History unfolded and while those years went by the cult of personality to certain DJ/producers grew stronger. This was due mainly to the fact that a few DJs were the principal exponent of certain styles within the euro trance genre. Be it Sven Vath, PvD, Humate...Sasha, Digweed, Oakenfold who would play just about anything that was hot....and later on the Dutch movement consolidating out of hardcore with Tiësto as the main DJ, but backed up with experienced producers such as Ferry, Armin as kid, M.I.K.E., and so on.
Marketing and commercial success definitely spun off the celebrity personas of the likes of Oakenfold....he can take a lot of credit for exporting that anthemic sound all over the world in the late 90s and making it as popular as it is today. Sasha and Digweed and the likes were always doing their own thing a bit edgier, and also consolidated that "progressive-minded" base. The central Europeans such as PvD and Tiësto appealed to the heart and soul of their own people with the epic and very Germanic aesthetics in their own flavor of edm. Those artistic alignments formed the basic divisions for trance and prog in the early 21st century, but they have definitely evolved beyond recognition.
Now back to crowd reading , musical aesthetics and the construction of the musical journey.....you just have to listen to the first Tiësto livesets and mix compilations in the mid to late 90s to understand what he was striving for. Tiësto was virtually unknown...he was just doing his Dutch thing. I remember being a teenager who was brought up in the classical music world and being mystified when I heard such sets. Why? Because, they were a contemporary version of the epic Germanic ideals of late 19th century Romantic Austro-German music a la Wagner and Brahms....but being fun and danceable at the same time! Now I'm not saying that Tiësto or any of those guys have ever been even close to the grandiosity of the old metaphysical German composers. That would be blasphemy.
But they definitely did exploit and took to the dancefloor for the first time those ethnic aesthetics. Just listen a set like Tiësto- Innercity 1999. I don't think you have to know much about harmonic progression and music theory to understand the cohesiveness in a central European fashion through the soothing transitions and the development of the musical narrative throughout the set.
Tiësto was even doing his trademark sharp dissonant melodic and rhythmic contrasts back then, but in a much more traditional way. Now this takes me to another point, which is how us trance crackers have been able for almost a decade to pick apart 5 minutes of any live set or performance and be able to tell the differences between Tiësto, Oakenfold, PvD, Armin, Ferry, etc....They own have their own approach to creating a journey through European trance (and not just that after a few years actually). Some are more traditional and predictable, others are more experimental and inconsistent. Some will always develop a structured narrative that always goes down up up down, others will do quite unpredictable structures, and at other times will not care about the narrative of their sets at all. Some DJs will go beyond epic trance and play funky house, hard techno, breaks, progressive and others will stay with the same type of melodic uplifting trance forever. Some will mix in those other genres in clashing and dissonant ways, others will try to water them down through smoothness in the transition.....This is all a product of crowd reading and the ability to create a musical journey.
To tell you the truth, in order to create a musical journey for my ears with euro trance, a genre I rarely listen to much these days, the DJ would have to do something musically that goes way beyond the norm. Most DJs simply can't do it, not Tiësto, not PvD....only in rare occasions are they able to grab back my attention. It all went went downhill-musically speaking- after Tiësto was crowned #1 in 2002. But the fact is that it is still possible, yet only when those aesthetics are reinvented and evolved to the times of the listener.
That's the thing. You SHOULDN'T like it. It's not meant for you. But it is meant for other people, and not always for the oversimplified reason that they are clueless newbies or idiotic fanboys (even if that's the case for a lot of people). |
AMEN MAN! A-F***ING-MEN!
:eyes: |
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Hell no. That's what eurodance is for. |
For you. But trance does pretty much the same thing, taking itself a bit more seriously. It doesn't mean one has to take it more seriously.
| quote: | Prove it.
Take away the DJs, watch interest in trance sink like a stone. Throw a party, a clubnight....do not advertise the DJs on the flyer or anywhere. Watch. |
I was talking in the past sense. Tracks like Age of Love, Stella, Love Stimulation, For an Angel and even later tracks such as Gouryella were popular in dancefloors all over the world not because of the personalities behind them, but because of the music. Dancefloors reacted to those tracks positively, even if you never did.
Your cartoon is funny as hell and enlightening in many ways but it errs for intending to generalize all the crackers and lump them into the same category. Some of us had fun with trance while not having to chant the DJ's name and while remaining in the "temporary autonomous zone" of rave hedonism. I remember going to parties at Twilo before 2000 where PvD was playing and the whole ambiance was ing chaos. I didn't even see the DJ booth the first few times I went there, let alone PvD. Of course that he played anthems and the dancefloor bursted with energy. It was part of the experience, and let me tell you that for me it was pretty bottom up. The whole DJ worship didn't become so evident to me till a bit later.
| quote: | | Yes you have, you actually told me these exact words in another thread...jeez...couple years ago at least. Didn't you go by another name back then? |
Yes, I was YaleTrance. I changed back to Pio because I graduated and don't listen to much trance altogether.
| quote: | | Don't compare musicians with DJs. Musicians have a flavour and style that is easy to identify because it's something they made. DJs? They are playing other people's music, ergo they have no flavour or style. They are at the mercy of the tracks they choose which isn't very dissimilar from one another. |
Good DJs are almost always producers. But considering your point I could compare the edm DJ to a solo performer or an orchestral conductor, which also play mainly other people's music but with a personal approach that could be identifiable by a well-trained ear.
| quote: | | Okay, so enlighten me: What is it that a big DJ does to "read the crowd" that makes him so much better and worthy than an amateur DJ who "reads the crowd". What is the amateur DJ doing that is not as effective crowd reading as the big DJ. Provide actual, physical examples. Present your answer in point-form. |
I'm not talking about any big DJ...I wouldn't say that the likes of Armin or Ferry are better DJ performers than any amateur DJ with an ear and a grasp of beatmatching.Their only advantage is that they have been renowned producers, own labels, and have a wide access to the music that trance crackers like.
i admit it. DJing dance music is no science, it doesn't require much technical skill other than beatmatching. A good technical DJ is Qbert, Mixmaster Mike, Shadow, and any other turntablism artist.
DJing dance music is, however, an art. The crowd-reading skills are artistic values, and they all vary from artist to artist:
1. Tiësto: his principal crowd reading skill is displayed by his sense of timing as a DJ. He utilizes harmonic and rhythmic contrasts that go against the tenets of mixing that trance purists believe in. The unpredictability of some of his harsh contrasting mixing and dissonant transitions do WONDERS on the dancefloor. For example, in DD 2-2-2002 he used Plastikman-Spastik to lead into Alibi-Eternity ( a Dutch trance anthem). All the purists were disgusted when he started playing Umek and other techier stuff that goes way beyond what your average trance purist expect. That's why trance crackers here complain about his mixing, it's not traditional, it can be fairly experimental and innovative and at one time it pushed the style forward. But most importantly, these contrasts alter inmensely the mood and ambiance of the dancefloor.
2. PvD: As far as mixing goes, he's probably the antithesis of Tiësto. Precision and sharpness in the transition are of upmost importance. Unlike Tiësto, rhythmic contrasts are rare, but mainly because he has that very German mindset that consistency and structure are more important than anything else. Does it get boring at times? Definitely. What can be so great about it? Uptempo 140 + bpm high energy and very euphoric sets...probably as fast as one can get with European melodic structured dance music with amazing cohesion and flow (some techno DJs could overcome this, but I'm referring here to trance aesthetics). His crowd-reading skill is based primarily on keeping the energy up, up and up.....I have seen so many local and amateur DJs trying to do this and failing miserably, because they lack PvD's technical precision in terms of harmonic transitions that are so important for a cohesive flow in a DJ set.
3. Sasha and Digweed, and any other decent "prog" DJ: You reckon that a lot of the music that the prog artists play is boring and monotonous. Yet these DJs are able to rock dancefloors around the world. How do they do this? Is it just Hernan Cattaneo's celebrity persona? I don't think so. To be a successful prog DJ you have to know how to successfully weave basslines, create rhythmic contours, and keep the crowd dancing straight through. I remember the last time I saw Sasha and the vibe in the dancefloor was pretty much lost for 15 minutes or so...suddenly he abletons the bassline of a hit such as Mylo's Drop the Pressure and the energy of the dancefloor comes up again. He goes electro-housey from there and the danceable vibe is maintained throughout the set. Of course that an amateur prog DJ could also do this and get away with it, but the smoothness in the musical transitions done by Sasha (pre-ableton) or Digweed are not that easy to imitate.
4. Richie Hawtin: reads the crowd and alters the process of the minimal layers in the musical contour according to the vibe in the dancefloor. When I've seen him live he has always been successful in developing a narrative that keeps the dancefloor rocking through subtle nuances and overtones in the minimalist process of his music making.
I could go on but you get the point.....Of course this is just my personal appreciation of the music as I have personally experienced. I could also say great things of local DJs but you wouldn't know ...My point is that I like the DJs I mentioned for how they mix in the music, not for their marketing skills and other issues that are really not relevant from my perspective. |
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| Thois |
| I don't like cats, they don't fetch stuff. Dogs are allright though |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Thois
I don't like cats, they don't fetch stuff. Dogs are allright though |
The COR's the next folder down. |
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| isoterra |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fearless One
it seems that no |
i did |
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| nchs09 |
| omg ddi anyone read any of those long posts... anything that big relating to tiestor is not worth the read.:nervous: |
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| isoterra |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
He's playing solo tracks back to back, each track trying to outshine the others as the apex/climax of the whole mix, and that's the whole problem with the breakdown/anthem paradigm. Tracks don't blend into each other anymore, they repel each other, because each one is trying too hard to stand out, to be the UBER CHOON, to get played on Pete Tong's radio show so all the punters can buy a copy and the producer fills his coffers. Trance hasn't taken anyone on a journey for a terribly long time. You're not going on journeys, you're riding on merry-go-rounds, and for some ing reason you think that each time around the scenary is going to change.
(I'm speaking, of course, only of the trance that Tiesto plays. The Goa/Psy scene is exempt from this accusation) |
i'd accept that point if it were true but it just plain isn't for most of his sets nowadays & those of most other trance DJs also... more often than not they start with slower, less anthemic & more proghouse-edged tunes & progress up into epic trance with a clear peak, before moving into slightly more driving harder territory near the end. maybe it takes a seasoned ear to pick out the 'journey' feel in that or something but i've known plenty of people be able to
i don't know how many tiesto sets you've listened to recently but the ones i've heard most certainly don't all sound like energy 2000, if they did then that paragraph might ring true |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| Hell yeah. Even Dave Pearce starts out slow and slowly works up the tempo. Sometimes I think Ishkur has spent so long repeating something to himself he doesn't remember anything different. Or is massively over-generalising as usual. |
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| isoterra |
infact on that point...
01. Reflekt ft. Delline Bass - Need To Feel Loved (Fuzzy Hair Vocal Mix)
02. Erick E - Boogie Down
03. Late Night Alumni - Empty Streets (Seamus Haji & Paul Emmanuel Remix)
04. Eric Prydz & Steve Angello - Woz Not Woz (Version 2)
05. Elio Riso & Raffunk – To Be Or Not To Be
06. Coca & Ville - La Noche
07. Paul Jackson & Steve Smith - The Push
08. ID
09. Electro-Prompt - Beside Me (Gothek DC Remix)
10. The Killers - Mr. Brightside (Thin White Duke Remix)
11. Way Out West - Mindcircus (Gabriel & Dresden Club Mix)
12. Booka Shade - Mandarine Girl
13. Sublunar - Sanctuary (Antidote’s Tech Remix)
14. ID
15. Matthew Dekay - Clearing The mind
16. Petersky & Peres - Hello Ladies
17. Luminary - Amsterdam
18. Pryda - The Gift
19. ID
20. Andain - Beautiful Things (Gabriel & Dresden Unplugged Mix)
21. ID
22. BT - Mercury & Solace (12” Master Mix)
23. Above & Beyond & Andy Moor - Air For Life (Original Mix)
24. Tiesto - Traffic (Original Mix)
...count the number of supersaws & snareroll buildups! |
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