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Please post a sample of a bad Tiesto mix (pg. 28)
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by RebeL9
excuse me but I wouldn't call that a "harmonic" and "interesting" transition. if an unknown DJ would have done such a transition people would have laughed at him and shouted "noob!". |
I don't know if you know anything about music theory, but there's a clear harmonic and stylistic dissonance in that transition. That's why it sounds so harsh and "wrong" to your ears. I didn't say that that particular transition was interesting, but there's an actual musical reason for him doing what he did there. He's not simply being random and incoherent, he wants that clash to stand out as a shift of gears in the set.
| quote: | | Since you compared Tiesto with Ferry and Armin I can honestly say that I am not much into the style of none of them but one can clearly hear that both Ferry and Armin are far superiour when it comes to good mixing and keeping the flow in the mix. Tiesto on the other hand often just throws one tune on the other no matter if its house on trance or trance on techno without checking the flowtation |
That just means that you're traditional and conservative when it comes to trance. Ferry and Armin are technically better beatmatchers and mixers, but musically there is no comparison with Tiesto. Tiesto is simply in another league from those two. What is precisely so attractive about his mixing to me is precisely track placement and how he doesn't respect the old guard structure that you refer to as "flow". House-trance-techno-breaks...I want it all mixed, I don't want to hear breakdown after breakdown of epic trance. That's just boring.
Breaking that traditional flow and developing a cohesive storyline with those up and down shifts is musically much more interesting than 6 hours of epic trance. Just compare a set such as Tiësto's Dutch Dimension 2002 solo (or even his HMH set from last week) with the Armin Only marathon set from 2005 or from 2003. There's no real comparison, Armin maintains the same fluffy epic vibe throughout the whole 6 + hours! Tiesto goes way beyond that limited and narrow structure....musically he's much more experimental (that's why he's not as consistent). |
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| MichaelBoogerd! |
| quote: | Originally posted by RebeL9
excuse me but I wouldn't call that a "harmonic" and "interesting" transition. |
Yeah but Pio described it as a Harmonic Clash... isnt that the opposite of making a harmonic mix.
I have to agree with Pio here... that while Tiesto does get away with murder from time to time on his transitions, when pulled off correctly he uses this technique to dramatically effect the dancefloor shifting gears throughout a night.
It suits his style too... which (barring a brief period 98 - 01) has always been about house, trance, techno & a few elements of weird .
Unfortunately as the majority of his (now angry) fanbase were introduced to Tiesto in this period... they cannot understand why he left it behind. The only reason i can think of why there would now be so much hatred to this guy is that.
Cos if you actually met him, or spent any amount of time with him - you would know all that marketing, stadium gigs, hype and extras that everyone (including me) is so pissed off about - are completely a machine of his management... NOT the DJ. |
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| RebeL9 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I don't know if you know anything about music theory, but there's a clear harmonic and stylistic dissonance in that transition. That's why it sounds so harsh and "wrong" to your ears. I didn't say that that particular transition was interesting, but there's an actual musical reason for him doing what he did there. He's not simply being random and incoherent, he wants that clash to stand out as a shift of gears in the set.
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I know my music theory enough to say that there is not any harmonic and stylistic interpretation in that transition whatsoever. you as a hard edged Tiesto fan may find it so but for me as an observer I find that particular transition as rubbish. I rememer that Nyana as a whole was a collection of some quite good and decent tunes but what I remember best was how poor the mixing at places was.
And as a note I have been listening to Tiesto since 1998 and most of his mixed CDs but none before was as badly mixed as Nyana.
and I have listened to more dj mixes and sets in my time than you would think of. everything from psytrance to house, techno and trance. so i am not indoctrinated in any specific kind of mixing technique. I know how a techno dj build up his sets and a psy dj etc. And the way you seem to think that Tiesto is some kind of pioneer when it comes to playing trance into techno is nothing new at all. Sven Väth among many others used to jump between house, techno, trance and stuff in the early 90s.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
That just means that you're traditional and conservative when it comes to trance. Ferry and Armin are technically better beatmatchers and mixers, but musically there is no comparison with Tiesto. Tiesto is simply in another league from those two. What is precisely so attractive about his mixing to me is precisely track placement and how he doesn't respect the old guard structure that you refer to as "flow". House-trance-techno-breaks...I want it all mixed, I don't want to hear breakdown after breakdown of epic trance. That's just boring.
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Once again this is completely your opinion and I know for sure that many other here would not agree with you on saying that Tiesto plays in an own league when it comes to DJing. Yes he sucks at beatmatching and mixing, he even admitted that in an interview so now his worshippers can't even blame on "having a bad day" any longer.
So basicly what you are trying to say is that beatmatching and mixing skills are not important for a dj as long as he plays right tunes? Not that I am surprised since this far I've learnt that most Tiesto fans are not very interested in the art of DJing etc. After all they are just there to hear Traffic for the zillionth time.
Anyone can play right tunes. You could give any random bedroom dj to play some nifty tunes in a club and he could do a great job. Placing those right tracks at right times. If he can't beatmatch? So what!
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Breaking that traditional flow and developing a cohesive storyline with those up and down shifts is musically much more interesting than 6 hours of epic trance. Just compare a set such as Tiësto's Dutch Dimension 2002 solo (or even his HMH set from last week) with the Armin Only marathon set from 2005 or from 2003. There's no real comparison, Armin maintains the same fluffy epic vibe throughout the whole 6 + hours! Tiesto goes way beyond that limited and narrow structure....musically he's much more experimental (that's why he's not as consistent). |
For your information I rarely listen to epic trance nowadays. I got fed up like two years ago. Nowadays I rarely hear a good epic tune. I find Armins sets pretty boring but on the other hand its nothing compared to Tiestos set. Oh isnt it funny when a Tiesto fan says "Tiesto even plays techno in his sets!" and then you ask him "which techno" and he always mentions "Umek - Gatex". Seriously if Tiesto knew his techno he would realize that this tune is and there are loads of other better techno tunes that he could play in his sets and make his sets more interesting.
Gatex was even before Tiesto span it and was after. Nothing new under the sun. |
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| Numidia |
| Argh.. you people write too much... ;) |
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| MichaelBoogerd! |
I know you've been trendy for a while now, but why don't you update your examples a bit... I mean, he dropped Gatex in sets in 2002.
Try techno he spun this year at least... Or the new Smith & Selway (Bahamas) track that is being released on his own label.. that got hammered for a whole year by Tiesto.
Try Joris Voorn - Incident out...
Of course he doesnt play straight up hard-ass/chunky techno, but if he finds something he'll fit it in.
Check out recent playlists to see the abundance of housey tunes in there. Where did he get those? Cos he sure as hell didnt get them on a promo... in fact, he bought a few compilations out on the white isle in the summer.. and was so taken by a few of the tunes, he has incorporated them into his sets.
Whats the point?
You're all bad mouthing him for being lazy and a DJ who sits there playing his label & mates tracks. Its the same as your quoting one of the fans "he plays techno"... get a clue, before you make the statement! These kind of generalisations (both from the fans and you haters) are not doing anyone any particular justice here, not least yourselves in a public message board space.
@ Rebel9... you're still arguing for the sake of arguing over why Pio considered it a Harmonic MIx... nowhere in any of his posts did he say it was Tijs "harmonically mixing"... he considered it a contrast of harmonies... ie. mixing deliberately out of key... for effect.
That you weren't blown away by it, is up to you.. but i'm with Pio on the fact that it sure as hell works on the floor.
Most of the Nyana transitions were practised or rehearsed in gigs up to the cd "recording" including the one in question here... and live it sounded completely awesome and a brilliant change in pace to what was prior to that mix a bit slow start to another great GodsKitchen Solo show in late 2002.
That some people don't appreciate him or the fact he has millions of worshippers who sadly don't know any better than to trumpet fanfare's of heroic praise on this guy - well its basically a gimme now isnt it. You're either one or the other... or someone like me and Pio, actually fans of Tiesto for the style of (bad) mixing and tune selection he has. Sadly though mate, it looks like we're stuck somewhere in No Mans Land between a rock and a hard place.
Why everyone just can't leave it alone i dont know! |
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by RebeL9
I know my music theory enough to say that there is not any harmonic and stylistic interpretation in that transition whatsoever. you as a hard edged Tiesto fan may find it so but for me as an observer I find that particular transition as rubbish. |
Harmonic interpretation? Come on man, if you don't know what I'm talking about, don't pretend you do. I didn't say the transition was any good. I said there was an obvious harmonic clash in the progression from track to track, and that's why the odds of it not being perceived by the ear as a nice sound are pretty high. Dissonance in counterpoint is an old musical trick. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. If it didn't work for you, then fine, but I'm just letting you know of what he was trying to do with the music.
| quote: | I rememer that Nyana as a whole was a collection of some quite good and decent tunes but what I remember best was how poor the mixing at places was.
And as a note I have been listening to Tiesto since 1998 and most of his mixed CDs but none before was as badly mixed as Nyana. |
I agree...and ISOS 4 after that is even worse.
| quote: | | and I have listened to more dj mixes and sets in my time than you would think of. everything from psytrance to house, techno and trance. so i am not indoctrinated in any specific kind of mixing technique. I know how a techno dj build up his sets and a psy dj etc. And the way you seem to think that Tiesto is some kind of pioneer when it comes to playing trance into techno is nothing new at all. Sven Väth among many others used to jump between house, techno, trance and stuff in the early 90s. |
Yes, how Sven Vath used to play trance back in the day is the way I like to enjoy trance, and that's why I've always liked Tiësto more than the other epic Dutch trancers. I never said he was the first one or the pioneer in doing this though.
| quote: | Once again this is completely your opinion and I know for sure that many other here would not agree with you on saying that Tiesto plays in an own league when it comes to DJing. Yes he sucks at beatmatching and mixing, he even admitted that in an interview so now his worshippers can't even blame on "having a bad day" any longer.
So basicly what you are trying to say is that beatmatching and mixing skills are not important for a dj as long as he plays right tunes? Not that I am surprised since this far I've learnt that most Tiesto fans are not very interested in the art of DJing etc. After all they are just there to hear Traffic for the zillionth time. |
When I want to listen to a DJ with technical skills, I listen to Qbert, Mixmaster Mike, Murg, Craze, etc. A turntablist. Not a dance DJ. When I listen to a dance DJ I want to listen to music that will make me dance, and who keeps it interesting by breaking off from any genre parameters and structures. That's something Tiësto can do for me better than the other Dutch trance DJs. It has been like that from even before 1998. ;)
| quote: | | Anyone can play right tunes. You could give any random bedroom dj to play some nifty tunes in a club and he could do a great job. Placing those right tracks at right times. If he can't beatmatch? So what! |
But there's a sense of timing and musicianship that are essential to make a set interesting for me. A bedroom DJ can do it if he has the talent, but 90% of the dance DJs I've heard in my life fail at breaking off from the monotonous parameters of genrification.
| quote: | For your information I rarely listen to epic trance nowadays. I got fed up like two years ago. Nowadays I rarely hear a good epic tune. I find Armins sets pretty boring but on the other hand its nothing compared to Tiestos set. Oh isnt it funny when a Tiesto fan says "Tiesto even plays techno in his sets!" and then you ask him "which techno" and he always mentions "Umek - Gatex". Seriously if Tiesto knew his techno he would realize that this tune is and there are loads of other better techno tunes that he could play in his sets and make his sets more interesting.
Gatex was even before Tiesto span it and was after. Nothing new under the sun. |
Tiësto played techno way before Gatex, that's just the example of when he took it to the mainstream and when it finally became scandalous to all the epic trance purists. He's always been techier than the other dutch trance cheeseheads. If you never liked Gatex then good for your personal taste, but the truth is that it was very effective in dancefloors everywhere, with a very different sound from what you would expect from an epic trance DJ back in those days or even today.
Oh yeah, and the same thing could be said about a contemporary track such as Incident...that really gets the party going. ;) |
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| RebeL9 |
| quote: | Originally posted by MichaelBoogerd!
I know you've been trendy for a while now, but why don't you update your examples a bit... I mean, he dropped Gatex in sets in 2002.
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sorry but that is the answer I got quite recently from Tiesto fans. It's not my example. Most people would propably remember Gatex as the tune when Tiesto started to play some techno for the broader audience. Even his own fans.
Well I have said most I wanted to say in this discussion.
Actually I don't even understand why I bother to comment on Tiesto. Haven't been listening to him for ages. I heard the Disneyland set and was shocked how awful he played. I was like "comeon even the most naive and hardcore Tiesto fans can't like this garbage?" :wtf:
So no more Tiesto chit chat now. There are loads and loads of other more interesting and better djs which are better than Tiesto in every aspect.
And to the thread starter. No Tiesto can't beatmatch, he admitted it so whats the deal? :toothless |
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| Abhay |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Since there is no real problem beatmatching-wise he probably didn't think there was any problem with it. Tiesto likes those sort of harmonic and rhythmic clashes such as the transition you're describing. I like them too, they make the mix more interesting, but I recognize that this one wasn't as nice as other such transitions that he has done in the past.
To tell you the truth I'd rather listen to this kind of transition than an average smooth flowing Armin van Buuren or Ferry Corsten mix. Tiesto manages to make the whole epic trance experience a bit more interesting whenever he cares enough about his set. I remember when he ended a set by mixing Umek-Gatex with Suburban Train and everyone accused him of blasphemy. The transition does sound a bit ugly but I still think it was brilliant, it had a huge rollercoaster effect on the dancefloor by changing the whole mood of the set so suddenly. |
I actually agree with u there... though i prefer the PVD style of mixing... so energetic, so flowous...
What u said reminds me of the club space Live Set on Trance ADdict. I loved the way he played with the bass. One track, it would be hard, and tight, then during the transition, the bass would all the sudden turn into one that was very rolling and rumbling.. if that makes sense :P.
Anyways, with a nice set of subs, that sort of transition sounds really cool, and i can just imagine the impact on the dancefloor :D. |
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by RebeL9
Actually I don't even understand why I bother to comment on Tiesto. Haven't been listening to him for ages. I heard the Disneyland set and was shocked how awful he played. I was like "comeon even the most naive and hardcore Tiesto fans can't like this garbage?" :wtf:
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I just had to say that right, that Disneyland set is quite bad..That's why you should bother listening to the last few sets by Tiësto which actually have been pretty good, and even his detractors admit it:
Tiësto Live @ the Heineken Music Hall 12-3-05
Tiësto Live @ Club Duplex, Prague 11-20-05
| quote: | Originally posted by Abhay
I actually agree with u there... though i prefer the PVD style of mixing... so energetic, so flowous...
What u said reminds me of the club space Live Set on Trance ADdict. I loved the way he played with the bass. One track, it would be hard, and tight, then during the transition, the bass would all the sudden turn into one that was very rolling and rumbling.. if that makes sense :P.
Anyways, with a nice set of subs, that sort of transition sounds really cool, and i can just imagine the impact on the dancefloor :D. |
Indeed. :cool: |
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| Swamper |
The Heineken set is a very nice listen indeed.
IMO, not being #1 again this year is the best thing that could've happened to him. |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Well I haven't changed my original stance, probably just explained myself a bit better.
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You've changed your stance so many times, I don't know what you're arguing about anymore, but I don't care. This is too much fun.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
We have different perspectives. End of.
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But the story doesn't end there. Because perspectives can be right and wrong. And that is why we argue.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
The template in pretty much most productions by Markus Schulz, Prosbot, Gabriel and Dresden, Perry O'Neil, Elevation and such is quite evident.
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Show me.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Well that's the thing. McProg is NOT really prog. It just thinks it is. All of those tracks in their original form are also part of the McProg trend, not just remixes of epic trance (even if that's what it really is after all). The thing is that it is a trend for these guys to do different versions of their tracks and even the original will be called (Gabriel and Dresden remix), even if Motorcycle=Gabriel and Dresden.
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This is all fine and dandy, and I'm inclined to agree with you, but I still fail to see where the correlation lies in connecting it with the streamlined process of fast food.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Yes, prog has never done such things, but McProg has.
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Where?
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
McProg is not progressive at all, but that's what it intends to be.
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Sure. But that's immaterial.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Blink 182 calling itself punk, and we would despectively re-word it McPunk for exploiting the aesthetics of the genre and prioritizing quantity over quality.
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Blink182 is too polished and smooth to be punk. It is pop punk. I wouldn't call it McPunk because there is no saturation movement to churn out similar sounding music. Unless I missed this trend.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Is this pretentious or what?
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And yet you're defending ing Tiesto.
All valid points, and all I agree with, but all completely and totally irrelevent. I want to see what the template looks like, what it's main features are, and how it has come to dominate the electronic music landscape.
In other words: Show me the burger fryer. Show me the "billions and billions sold" monolithic logos. Because at the moment all you've told me is that this prog music has remixed epic trance to kingdom come. Okay. Sure. But that doesn't make it "Mc". At the most, it's just bad music. Call it Pop Prog if you want. Or Epic Prog. At the moment, that's kind of what I'm leaning towards. |
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