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Please post a sample of a bad Tiesto mix (pg. 21)
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| iammesol |
| Once again i say... that this is leading nowhere, Ishkur will always remain an arrogant mofo who must be right, and Tiësto actually does have DJ/Production skills. |
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| Erotic Buddha |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Yes. You are free to appreciate your music however you want. But I am free to not appreciate it, and I am free to tell you that I don't appreciate it, and to furthermore hate you because your appreciation of it has wiped out the music that I appreciate.
So there. |
you're also free to off and never post your condescending arrogant elitist face posts here again
shoot yourself in the head please |
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| Abhay |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
let's see here....
Peres & Petersky, Markus Schulz, Portishead, Erix Prydz, Sasha, Schiller, Humate, Above & Beyond, Andy Moor, Solarstone, Jam & Spoon, Mark Norman, Gabriel & Dresden, Purple Haze, James Holden, ATB, Terry Bones, Sinead O'ing Conner!?, Tiesto (can't forget him after all)...blah blah blah...
Yeah, those are real obscure artists. It's good that Tiesto's spending such arduous time hunting obscure labels and scraping the bottom of record bins to get the most prime, unheard of cuts to play for us.
Sorry. I'm not impressed. I don't even listen to that trance, and I've heard 60% of that music.
And we were previously talking about the set he did two weekends ago, live from Club Duplex, Prague 11-20-2005:
FIVE TRACKS??! That's ing horrible, that number should be zero, and he's playing the same ing artists. What difference does it make?
If that's the case, then trance is in a sorrier state than I previously thought.
I'm looking for an apples and oranges comparison. What you showed me was an apple that's red, and another apple that's slightly more red. The difference is negligible. You're reaching. You're reaching reeeeeeeaaaaallly hard to justify Tiesto's worth and competence. Why is that? if I know. You're taking this way too personally.
And if you seriously think that's funk....man, as a musicologist, you're in a lot of trouble.
Actually, a better theory is he doesn't give a at home. The people will excuse him for any piss-poor performance, so he can just dial that one in and call it a night. People will think it's the greatest thing ever. I know dozens of DJs who do this. You don't have to work as hard on your home turf because you're already well-known and there's nothing to gain by putting effort into it.
When he's abroad, however, he's got to market and sell himself more maturely, which is why he puts his game face on, to dissemeninate his vision of his awe-inspiring allure to the masses. So he puts a little elbow grease into it, because that's the only way he's going to sell.
But it's still like applauding a child for riding a bike without training wheels.
This is awesome. You should work for trancecritic with this crap. A guy's playing other people's music, and you make it sound like he made it and everything. I couldn't have shovelled it better myself.
Do they? No, I'm honestly asking you: do they? Show me.
Don't give me a music lesson. That's insulting.
Okay, read this statement back to yourself, and ask yourself if it honestlty makes any sense.
Yes.
Yes. You are free to appreciate your music however you want. But I am free to not appreciate it, and I am free to tell you that I don't appreciate it, and to furthermore hate you because your appreciation of it has wiped out the music that I appreciate.
So there. |
It's OK, just relax...
don't cry, everything is going to be OK.... It's all going to be OK.
CLICK |
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| Abhay |
| quote: | Originally posted by iammesol
Tiësto actually does have DJ/Production skills. |
He doesn't have DJIng skills....
I really have to refute that. IN the end, the crowd really enjoys themselves.
Mixing ability, is just a tool for enjoyment. |
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| teknomonki |
| quote: | Originally posted by iammesol
Ishkur will always remain an arrogant mofo who must be right. |
hence his 'Guide' to Electronic Music, which upon opening the first bit about techno appears to be unsubstantiated, general opinions without any real basis or evidence for where his ideas originated. everyone should flick through this at least once for comedy value.
http://www.ishkur.com/music/ |
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| Azz3D |
| am I the only one to notice sarcasm in ishkur's posts? |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Even Z-Trip will repeat about 5 tracks when doing gigs in consecutive weekends.
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Yeah, but there's a difference there: Z-trip is doing something technical and precise that takes days to figure out how to do and then more days to memorize how to do efficiently and properly. You cannot do anything he does on the fly. The needle has to be placed on the EXACT groove (they put stickers on the records to mark it) and pitches have to be just right, for some of the mixes to work. But when they figure it out, and practise it, they are capable of doing this in seconds at a live show. DMC DJs talk about that all the time: They spend months rehearsing for a 6-minute set. It's literally like gymnastics. They have a routine, and they practise it until it's second nature and they can pull it off perfectly live, every time.
What is Tiesto doing? He's playing records.
Oh.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
How could it be in a sorrier state? How worse could it be...according to your standards?
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Rolling Stone magazine declares him "the greatest musician of all time". 50,000 people show up in a dome to hear--not him in person--but his mix Nyana being played.
What's the difference between God and Tiesto?
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
You obviously didn't listen to the sets. The vibes conveyed by the two sets are totally different and contrast each other quite nicely. There's barely any epic trance in the first one, and hours of it in the other one.
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Why do you keep blowing smoke up my ass?
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Not really. There are simply more epic trance "crackers" and cheeseheads in the Netherlands than anywhere else. The different vibes are a product of cultural aesthetics.End of.
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That's not cultural esthetics. That's what we in the sportsworld call "homerism". Why would the Dutch cut down one of their own? They love him no matter what he does, which is all the more reason for him to not try and slack off, because it doesn't matter.
There's a rule in business: don't sell when it's already sold.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
At the big city venues in America, the likes of Oakenfold, Tiësto, PvD charge easily over $35,000 per gig. If you add all the gigs they've done here since 1999, plus album sales, all of them have made millions in this continent.
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Show me.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
feel sorry for you if you really think the productions of Thomas Bangalter, and much worse Tubed, sounds as American as apple pie. But to each his own, maybe you haven't been to Europe yourself and don't understand the aesthetics of the old continent.
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Part of what makes your "cultural esthetics" argument stupid is it's not provable, falsifiable, testable or repeatible. if you want to say that only the French could make that brand of house...well, of course that's already proven to be bull since the best French House artists currently aren't from France, aren't related to France and have never been there.
Secondly, it's the height of hubris to suggest that there's some sort of secreted, guarded knowledge that only you know and understand and no one can possibly capture the essence of if they grow with a certain cultural esthete.
I can't see any form of music relegated to any culture, that couldn't also be invented or applied by another culture if the dice had rolled differently. Because it is nothing more than happenstance that developed musical tastes and tribal values. Why did baroque music develop in Europe and reggae in the Caribbean? ....nah, not cultural esthetics. It's mostly just luck. Because there's nothing stopping a caribbean rasta from making a pipe organ and hammering out some blissful chords, just as there's nothing stopping a German from making a steel drum and some reeds and putting out something punchy.
(pssssssT: Boney M. Caribbean-German disco)
Cultural esthetics does not exist in a bubble, and does not close people off from access to certain music while making other people only appreciate some. People have much wider appreciation for music than that, and you're doing them a disservice by suggesting that only the brilliant european mind can come up with something so insipid.
That's called eurocentrism, and its offensive. I thought we got rid o that 50 years ago.
Did the French invent French House? Yes. Did they invent it because they were the only ones who could have thought to invent it? ....oh hell no. All things being equal, the emergence of French House was a damn near inevitability. Because the French thought of it first doesn't mean that it was something only they could come up with. Hell, before Daft Punk, did the French even have a house scene? ....and where did it come from?
Electro is primarily a German idea. Yet Detroit and Miami are its homes. Why? How on earth are black lower-class funk and soul artists able to adopt whitebread, upper-class German intellectualism? Those contrasts should never go together. The cultural esthetics break down. It's as odd as the Irish folk jig taking up Bantu war chants. Yet it happened.
Cultural esthetics can not explain it. Maybe because music is not cultural after all, but universal. Good music is simply good music, and a good musician exposed to some will recognize the inherent quality thereof.
But if cultural esthetics is the only thing you can hang on to to champion the worth and integrity of dutch music......heh....very well then.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
haha, you hate me? :haha:
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holy , do I?
But we're getting off track here, aren't we?
*ahem*
Let's get back to crowd-reading. Show me an instance of this.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Well, we're still waiting for your defense of the great and masculine American trancers such as Sandra Collins, Kimball Collins, Chris Lawrence and Max Graham. You said that they would NEVER play those ridiculous euro breakdowns but you were proved plainly wrong. How are you going to justify that fact now, Ishkur? ;) |
*shrug*
Personal experience. I've seen Kimball Collins once, Christopher Lawrence 3 times, Sandra Collins four times, and Max Graham more times than I can remember (he used to live here). Other than Graham, I remember them all playing tech-trance more than anything else. This was in 1999 though, so their tastes may change, but I don't remember them dragging out any bull 3-minute breakdown unending snare roll bombastic anthem bull. In fact, it was a Sandra Collins set where I first heard Breeder's 'The Chain'. Lawrence played a Nexus party in Edmonton with 10,000 people. No anthems.
Picking out one or more times where they played a cheese track? ....Sure....maybe. But are they ASOTing their tracks to oblivion with hoaky vocals? ....no. Are they playing nothing but anthems for 2 hours? .....no. Are they doing the Jesus Christ pose? .....no.
A better argument you could've made was to bring up Mars & Mystre or the myriad of other DJs who play just as worse music. American trance DJs are truthfully all over the map. But I was more interested in the producers than the DJs. I can't find any American fluffy trance producers. |
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| montana |
| ishkur, i reckon your sight of trance today is pretty outdated, i am well aware of your so called exile but the fact is you really don't know . i could go on, but this little head to head battle with you & pio, where he is handing your ass to you over and over and over again and you are recycling old answers are just to funny to not miss. |
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| Aiwendil |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Electro is primarily a German idea. Yet Detroit and Miami are its homes. Why? How on earth are black lower-class funk and soul artists able to adopt whitebread, upper-class German intellectualism? Those contrasts should never go together. The cultural esthetics break down. It's as odd as the Irish folk jig taking up Bantu war chants. Yet it happened. |
Gotta love all those electro making black lower-class funk and soul artists from Miami. Oh, you mean Maurice Starr, the guy who discovered New Kids On The Block.
"Them some funky white boys" - Bam Bam on the German ideas.
'Course that was in New York, far from the homes of Electro. |
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Yeah, but there's a difference there: Z-trip is doing something technical and precise that takes days to figure out how to do and then more days to memorize how to do efficiently and properly. You cannot do anything he does on the fly. The needle has to be placed on the EXACT groove (they put stickers on the records to mark it) and pitches have to be just right, for some of the mixes to work. But when they figure it out, and practise it, they are capable of doing this in seconds at a live show. DMC DJs talk about that all the time: They spend months rehearsing for a 6-minute set. It's literally like gymnastics. They have a routine, and they practise it until it's second nature and they can pull it off perfectly live, every time.
What is Tiesto doing? He's playing records.
Oh. |
I know this. Of course there's no technical comparison between turntablists and edm DJs. That's besides the point here.
| quote: | | Rolling Stone magazine declares him "the greatest musician of all time". 50,000 people show up in a dome to hear--not him in person--but his mix Nyana being played. |
haha!
| quote: | | What's the difference between God and Tiesto? |
One of them doesn't exist?
| quote: | That's not cultural esthetics. That's what we in the sportsworld call "homerism". Why would the Dutch cut down one of their own? They love him no matter what he does, which is all the more reason for him to not try and slack off, because it doesn't matter.
There's a rule in business: don't sell when it's already sold. |
I understand what you're saying, but you're really missing the point. Man, I lived in Amsterdam for a year. The people in Holland LOVE their epic trance. I'd go to a flea market, to a barbershop, to a coffeeshop, to Burger King....and they'd all be playing epic Dutch trance at some point. Would you really hear any of this walking around the streets of Paris or Prague? Probably not.
It's already part of the culture. Sure, they will always root for the home team and the homegrown music, but they actually enjoy this music, and for the same reason they enjoy their Gouda cheese. Its rich taste is predictable, it's a guilty pleasure, and they can never have enough of it.
I don't really keep track of their tax returns but when I do I'll let you know. Estimating over that amount is completely plausible.
| quote: | | Part of what makes your "cultural esthetics" argument stupid is it's not provable, falsifiable, testable or repeatible. if you want to say that only the French could make that brand of house...well, of course that's already proven to be bull since the best French House artists currently aren't from France, aren't related to France and have never been there. |
It's not provable because the root of the theory is part of a subjective sociological value, not of any objective scientific measurable value.
I told you already that once a movement is pioneered according to someone's context and personal aesthetics, it can be exported for its adaptation and its imitation. That's why I'm not surprised at all to know that there's French house coming from Sweden and Canada, just as much as I'm not surprised to see fluffy euro trance coming from Long Island or suburban Michigan.
| quote: | | Secondly, it's the height of hubris to suggest that there's some sort of secreted, guarded knowledge that only you know and understand and no one can possibly capture the essence of if they grow with a certain cultural esthete. |
This is no secret at all. It's actually a pretty mainstream line of thought and one of the principal tenets of [/QUOTE]ethnomusicology.
| quote: | | I can't see any form of music relegated to any culture, that couldn't also be invented or applied by another culture if the dice had rolled differently. Because it is nothing more than happenstance that developed musical tastes and tribal values. Why did baroque music develop in Europe and reggae in the Caribbean? ....nah, not cultural esthetics. It's mostly just luck. Because there's nothing stopping a caribbean rasta from making a pipe organ and hammering out some blissful chords, just as there's nothing stopping a German from making a steel drum and some reeds and putting out something punchy. |
Now you're saying that musical discourse is a product of luck? Hah. Well, that's pretty far-fetched. There's NO way in hell that reggae could've been invented in Germany. As a resident of the Caribbean myself, I find that comment to be the most ridiculous thing you've said in this whole debate.
First of all...reggae is an evolution and a re-integration of various forms of Afro-Caribbean musical movements (calypso, ska, rocksteady) with a bit of American rnb. And this brings me to another important factor in the debate of cultural aesthetics: the context of time. Reggae was also a product of its era. This is why reggae is much more psychedelic than in its predecessors (musically) and much more poltically conscious (lyrically).
And anyway, reggae (in its original form) is intrinsically Afro-caribbean in every way. The rhythmic swing is tropical and evokes the soulful, chill ambiance that was pioneered by the calypso spirituals of the slaves a century before. Could it have been invented by white people, let alone Germans? Definitely NOT.
As for baroque music, the context of time is also extremely relevant. If you really want to understand baroque music, you would have to delve in the historic context: the 17th century Catholic Church demanded more populist and less elitist ecclesiastical artforms, leading to the development of styles in sculpture, painting, literature, and even music (a bit later on) that was characterized by the exaggeration of detail, ornaments and stronger appeal to the senses. The styles of these different artforms evolved and influenced each other. Baroque music was significant for its use of counterpoint and harmony over the Reinnassance approach to polyphony based on consonances rather than progression. The sonic palette was expanded and the orchestra greatly increased its dramatic appearance. The music was all about simple yet strong contrasts in harmony and rhythm....just like one can draw an analogy to baroque paintings and poetry for their ornamentation.
Where did Baroque music start off? Italy (Frescobaldi, Monteverdi, Vivaldi) and neighboring Germany, which later on had the greatest exponents of the movement (Bach, Handel).
| quote: | Cultural esthetics does not exist in a bubble, and does not close people off from access to certain music while making other people only appreciate some. People have much wider appreciation for music than that, and you're doing them a disservice by suggesting that only the brilliant european mind can come up with something so insipid.
That's called eurocentrism, and its offensive. I thought we got rid o that 50 years ago. |
The wider the appreciation the better. I didn't say that only certain people can APPRECIATE certain genres. What I did say is that there is a logical (even if it's subjective) explanation as to why certain movements of music are pioneered in a specific cultural and historic context. I'm not eurocentric at all, I'm a globetrotter and admire every single culture I've encountered.
| quote: | | Did the French invent French House? Yes. Did they invent it because they were the only ones who could have thought to invent it? ....oh hell no. All things being equal, the emergence of French House was a damn near inevitability. Because the French thought of it first doesn't mean that it was something only they could come up with. Hell, before Daft Punk, did the French even have a house scene? ....and where did it come from? |
I'm not going to go over this again. French house will always sound as a product of French intellectual discourse to me, just like Debussy's Arabesque, while intending to sound "Arabic", sounds pretty damn French impressionistic to me.
| quote: | | Electro is primarily a German idea. Yet Detroit and Miami are its homes. Why? How on earth are black lower-class funk and soul artists able to adopt whitebread, upper-class German intellectualism? Those contrasts should never go together. The cultural esthetics break down. It's as odd as the Irish folk jig taking up Bantu war chants. Yet it happened. |
Electro. Excellent example! Cultural aesthetics at its finest, actually.
Yes, electro is primarily a German idea pioneered by upperclass Euro intellectuals....But the black artists in America gave electro its funk and soul!
Does Trans Europe Express really sound "funky" to you? To me it sounds rather "whitebread, upper-class" Euro trashy, and I don't say that in a bad way, I love it...But it definitely lacked the ingredient that Afrika Bambaataa would later give to it with Planet Rock...Actual funk, incorporated by someone who understood funk in his heart and soul and not simply an intellectual foreign to the original source of funk but trying his best to re-integrate it.
| quote: | Cultural esthetics can not explain it. Maybe because music is not cultural after all, but universal. Good music is simply good music, and a good musician exposed to some will recognize the inherent quality thereof.
But if cultural esthetics is the only thing you can hang on to to champion the worth and integrity of dutch music......heh....very well then. |
Good music is always universal, but it is always a product of cultural discourse, whether developed over the channels of transnational communications or in secluded regional settings. Context and circumstance, in time or in space, are always highly influential for this discourse.
| quote: | *shrug*
Personal experience. I've seen Kimball Collins once, Christopher Lawrence 3 times, Sandra Collins four times, and Max Graham more times than I can remember (he used to live here). Other than Graham, I remember them all playing tech-trance more than anything else. This was in 1999 though, so their tastes may change, but I don't remember them dragging out any bull 3-minute breakdown unending snare roll bombastic anthem bull. In fact, it was a Sandra Collins set where I first heard Breeder's 'The Chain'. Lawrence played a Nexus party in Edmonton with 10,000 people. No anthems.
Picking out one or more times where they played a cheese track? ....Sure....maybe. But are they ASOTing their tracks to oblivion with hoaky vocals? ....no. Are they playing nothing but anthems for 2 hours? .....no. Are they doing the Jesus Christ pose? .....no. |
Fine, but you initially said that they would NEVER played this types of breakdowns or anthems. Thanks for clearing that up. I've actually seen Sandra Collins, Chris Lawrence and Max Graham over five times each and I knew right away that you were a bit off base there. First time I saw Sandra Collins in 1999 she closed with Airwave. Nuff said.
| quote: | | I can't find any American fluffy trance producers. |
That's funny, I actually came up with the term McProg to categorize these fluffy American prog trance producers: Gabriel & Dresden, Markus Schulz, Elevation, and a bunch of other contemporary producers not even worth mentioning. |
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| Aiwendil |
| quote: | Electro. Excellent example! Cultural aesthetics at its finest, actually.
Yes, electro is primarily a German idea pioneered by upperclass Euro intellectuals....But the black artists in America gave electro its funk and soul!
Does Trans Europe Express really sound "funky" to you? To me it sounds rather "whitebread, upper-class" Euro trashy, and I don't say that in a bad way, I love it...But it definitely lacked the ingredient that Afrika Bambaataa would later give to it with Planet Rock...Actual funk, incorporated by someone who understood funk in his heart and soul and not simply an intellectual foreign to the original source of funk but trying his best to re-integrate it. |
Number one, Bambaataa has said more than once that he thought Trans-Europe-Express sounded funky to him, and number two, Arthur Baker produced Planet Rock... |
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