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Please post a sample of a bad Tiesto mix (pg. 19)
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| stefanoc |
Ishkur:
some of your claims are understandable, i agree.
but some others are some lame crap. who the hell do u think u are to talk all this? americans do not tolerate bs like the europeans? tell me who watches nascar? nothing but driving in circles for laps and laps. who calls that exciting? the people who dont have toleration?
who has more toleration in politics? europe? dont think so.
ur making false claims sometimes. its not that US doesnt tolerate, but it is a tougher market probably because we are a huge nation. US mostly listens to hip hop. how can they tolerate the hip hop djs who play a songs intro 50 times in a row? |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Trance-MB
Dutch DJ's are great crowd readers (but not only the Dutch), probably because they are able to play for huge crowds. |
That's like saying McDonalds is great food, because so many people eat there.
Argumentium ad Populum fallacy.
| quote: | Originally posted by Numidia
Ishkur: You are a lame EDM knockoff of Ed the Sock (Sorry, I think only Canadians will know who that is) |
Actually, I'm a knockoff of Seanbaby. I predate Ed the Sock by a few years, easily.
stefanoc: No, I really do think I hit on something there. Not the culture as a whole, just its attitude towards trance music. Just look at American trance. Think of tracks like Josua Ryan - Pistolwhip, or Deepsky - Seance (or Stargazer), or Christopher Lawrence - Interceptor, or anything by Rabbit in the Moon or BT. Or hell, even Delerium or Adam Starr. Or just listen to what the bigger trance DJs mostly play....Lawrence, Kimball Collins, Micro, Max Graham, Sandra Collins....what do all these people have in common? Absolutely no bull fluffy euro disney e. They play good, solid, masculine trance. No saw wave explosions, no momentum-killing breakdowns, no inane snare rolls. No frills, no bull, no gimmicks, no ecstasy-maximizer trumpet anthems. Just damn fine good trance. The way it was meant to be.
Why is that? |
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| stefanoc |
i havent attended any of these djs gigs, so i wouldnt know.
its all personal opinion, taste and all that. |
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| miamitranceman |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Just damn fine good trance. The way it was meant to be.
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According to you. |
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| Trance-MB |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
That's like saying McDonalds is great food, because so many people eat there. |
Wrong explanation, the people behind McDonalds also are great crowd readers. Has nothing to do with the quality. Many people like that junkfood. (I don't)
I think record companies in Europe give much more attention to Trance than in the US. ID&T are behind some huge events. The more people hear it, the more will like it or get interested. It's a snowball effect, but it took some years to grow. Next to that sub styles like Eurohouse are a huge help for DJ's. The step to Trance and the club scene than isn't a big one. The kids who grow up with this music want to be at the huge party's when they are old enough. This is what keeps it alive.
I think that's the main reason the DJ's don't have the same success in the US as in Europe. I can remember an interview with 2Unlimited just after they visited Japan in the 90's. They "played" for 90.000 people, many more then they had ever played for. A huge unexpected surprise.
Best way to compare it probably is Soccer. All over the world the number 1 of sports, except in the US. Even a world championship couldn't change that in a short period of time. It will take years, probably a generation.
Tiesto's performance yesterday resulted in 130 pages. Although the beginning wasn't great it looks like it most Tranceaddicts really liked it at the end.
I think Tiesto still is the man (but not my favourite).
If someone thinks he's a DJ, then I believe most Tranceaddicts won't agree. |
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Uh huh. But the bomb will drop when I see his tracklist from the following weekend. |
I waited a few days to reply because I was waiting for yesterday's set from the HMH, just so the music could speak for itself.
Here you go. Compare....
| quote: | Tiesto tracklist: Heineken Music Hall December 3, 2005
01. Peres & Petersky - Hello Ladies
02. Oliver Moldan Pres. Prawler - Marrakech
03. Markus Schulz Feat. Anita Kelsey - First Time
04. Niklas Harding Pres. Arcane - Blue Circles
05. Kalafut & Fygle - Novocaine (Mark Otten Remix)
06. ID
07. Portishead - Roads (Sultan & Tonedepth Edit) (Live)
08. Pryda - The Gift
09. Late Night Alumni - Empty Streets (Seamus Haji & Paul Emmanuel Remix)
10. Coca And Vila - La Noche
11. Joris Voorn - Incident
12. ID
13. Sasha - Belfunk (Matthew Dekay Remix)
14. Schiller - Das Glockenspiel (Humate Remix)
15. ID # 14 Duplex
16. Above & Beyond Feat. Andy Moor - Air For Life
17. ID
18. Solarstone Feat. Jess - Like A Waterfall (In Search Of Sunrise Edit)
19. Jam & Spoon - Odyssey To Anyoona
20. Kosmas Epsilon - Innocent Thoughts
21. Funabashi - Daylight
22. Super8 vs. DJ Tab - Helsinki Schorhin
23. ID
24. Carrie Skipper - Time Goes By (Super8 Deep Mix)
25. Factoria - Kissed By An Andel (DST-7 Remix)
26. ID
27. Scott Mac – Damager 02 (Mac Zimms Remix)
28. Mark Norman - Brasilia (Phantom Edit)
29. Gabriel & Dresden Feat. Molly - Tracking Treasure Down
30. ID
31. Purple Haze - Eden
32. James Holden - Horizons
33. ATB - Let U Go (E-Craigs 2005 Rework)
34. Nautical Imagery - Distant Dreams (Alex Morph Remix)
35. Will Holland - Timeless (Deepwide Remix)
36. Interstate - Remember Me (Terry Bones Remix)
37. Inertia - The Chamber
38. Headstong - Close Your Eyes (Dwight van Mann Remix)
39. Marksun & Brian - Gran Rey (Ronski Speed Remix)
40. Sinead O'Conner - Troy (Push Remix)
41. Peetu S - A Bigger Palace
42. Mark Norman - Touchdown
43. Tiesto - Flight 643
44. Bart Claessen - Playmo
45. Ekon - Skywalker
46. Duende - Ilimitado
47. Ekon - Existence
48. ID
49. Aalto - Resolution
50. Alfa - Sacrosant
51. ID
52. Ronski Speed Feat. Stoneface And Terminal - Incognition (Club Mix)
53. ID
54. ID
55. Thomas Bronzwaer - Shadow World
56. Preach - My World
57. Preach - Broken Inside |
And we were previously talking about the set he did two weekends ago, live from Club Duplex, Prague 11-20-2005:
| quote: | 01. Reflekt ft. Delline Bass - Need To Feel Loved (Fuzzy Hair Vocal Mix)
02. Erick E - Boogie Down
03. Late Night Alumni - Empty Streets (Seamus Haji & Paul Emmanuel Remix)
04. Eric Prydz & Steve Angello - Woz Not Woz (Version 2)
05. Elio Riso & Raffunk - To Be Or Not To Be
06. Coca & Ville - La Noche (ISOS Edit)
07. Paul Jackson & Steve Smith - The Push (Far From Here)
08. Julien Jabre - War
09. Electro-Prompt - Beside Me (Gothek DC Remix)
10. The Killers - Mr. Brightside (Thin White Duke Dub)
11. Way Out West - Mindcircus (Gabriel & Dresden Club Mix)
12. Booka Shade - Mandarine Girl
13. Sublunar - Sanctuary (Antidote's Tech Remix)
14. ID
15. Matthew Dekay - Clearing The mind
16. Petersky & Peres - Hello Ladies
17. Luminary - Amsterdam
18. Pryda - The Gift
19. ID
20. Andain - Beautiful Things (Gabriel & Dresden Unplugged Mix)
21. Alex Stealthy - Deploring
22. BT - Mercury & Solace (12" Master Mix)
23. Above & Beyond & Andy Moor - Air For Life (Original Mix)
24. Tiesto - Traffic (Original Mix) |
So all in all only about 5 tracks were repeated. That's nothing for a trance DJ these days and you know it. Even if you take into account that yesterday's Amsterdam set was 4 times longer, you have to take your comment back because they are obviously two completely different approaches to building up a set, with completely different vibes of music in the most part.
The Prague set has a funky, housy vibe with few breakdowns and anthems. It was a set he constructed according to the context and its circumstances: a private party in a small and trendy club at a country where house dominates the scene.
The HMH set has an epic construction. He was playing for about 10,000 Dutch tranceheads. This is a set for his home base. Unlike the Czech, anthems with long breakdowns are what these people mostly like and therefore he adapted this set to this context, by reading this crowd.
If I were to deconstruct this set I would talk about 4 to 5 major shift of gears, big stylistic contrasts that definitely got the crowd going. The first one occurred in the transition from track 10 to 11. After setting the mood with mellow melodic progressive, he climaxes that section of the set with the nu-Latin guitar anthem of La Noche. He totally shifts the mood in a cohesive fashion by mixing this into Joris Voorn - Incident, a track that also evokes Latin rhythmic flavor but in a much harder and less melodic sense.
After that he goes into a rather more uptempo territory than the first 10 tracks...mixing it up from a progressive trance oldie such as Das Glockenspiel to the energetic and driving track 15.
After that comes the first real contemporary hands in the air trance anthem with Above and Beyond's Air is Life and starts off a minor section of rather bad vocal anthems. I don't enjoy this part at all but with these next 3 tracks he pleases the vocal cheeseheads and the ASOT kids.
The set swiftly recovers with track 19, the classic Jam & Spoon - Odyssey To Anyoona. Who would've thought that Tiësto would actually do some crate-digging and play a track from 1994 in 2005?
From tracks 20 ro 26 he goes to pretty traditional territory...and then uppers the ante by changing the mood by going into much harder territory with Scott Mac – Damager 02 (Mac Zimms Remix) and Mark Norman - Brasilia (Phantom Edit).
Well...you get the point. The cyclical ups and downs keep coming throughout the set and the crowd always reacts accordingly.
Keep in mind that in both sets only ONE Tiësto track was played, Flight 643 being the one in this case, which was probably the climax of the whole 6 hours. No stupid MCs, no silly interventions...just dance music straight through.
| quote: | I could go out and ask 1000 Americans who he is. I will receive blank stares from 999 of them. Guaranteed.
Neither the nightly news, nor the newspapers, nor the radio, nor the talk shows, nor television in general....nothing. A good comment was made about 15 years ago, stating that you haven't really made it big in the American music industry until Weird Al does a parody.
There is no media presence whatsoever on Tiesto other than scene-devoted rags. He is water underneath the bridge of the mainstream media.
They have no idea how far they have to go. Drop in the bucket. No one here has heard of them. No one.
Hell, I just spent the past two days giving a crash-course tutorial on trance music to a promoter friend in Dallas who knew nothing about european DJs and music. |
So what? They still make millions in this continent. They still sell out events in every major American city. Most Americans still favor the death penalty and about half of them still think that 9-11 was orchestrated by Saddam Hussein. What does that tell us about the American public? I won't give an opinion about that because generalizations are generally dumb. :stongue:
Western musical instruments were a result of Western innovations in music technology, and their use was adapted to the intrinsic values of the cultural aesthetics and the approach to sound of a particular group of people (ie. violin, cello, viola, double bass, clavichord, trumpet, clarinet, oboe, French horn, mandoline, guitar, etc.)
African musical instruments were a result of African innovations in music technology, and their use was adapted to the intrinsic values of the cultural aesthetics and the approach to sound of a particular group of people (ie. Yoruba drum, Nuna whistles, a Zande harp, Asante drum, Djembe drum, bongo drum, etc.)
Asian musical instruments were a result of Asian innovations in music technology, and their use was adapted to the intrinsic values of the cultural aesthetics and the approach to sound of a particular group of people (ie. sitar, vina, erh-hu, mouth organs, gangsa, etc.)
With the expansion of the channels of communications many of these instruments were exported, and served as a influence to, or were adapted by, the musical aesthetics of a particular musical culture. Slavery and the exportation of millions of Africans into the New World resulted from day 1 in giving the new "Western" continent a much more dynamic and eclectic musical traditions, which can even be traced to the founding of edm.
| quote: | No it didn't.
How much American funk music have you actually listened to?
You want the source of French House? Jazz Crusaders - Cold Beans and Rice. 1962 4-to-the-floor house.
You know how they got that sound? Manually. The drummer was placed in a padded elevator to get a filtered thump to his percussion. |
I haven't heard that track and I'd love to...but come on, this is Joe Sample you're talking about! Just because it's funky and filtered doesn't mean it sounds like French house. French house is funky and filtered but that doesn't make it sound American at all! It just sounds like what it really is, music influenced by American funk, soul and disco but reinterpreted by some white Euro techno-savvy dude who does not quite really belong in that original setting.
Take for example that track that you swore at the beginning of the year that was Daft Punk's new single Human after all. As we all know, it turned out to be something else, Tube & Berger - Tubed. Does that track really sound "American" to you? Not to me. To me it sounds like two 23-year old German kids trying to imitate Daft Punk in what they call "Boogie House Electro Punk". In other words, Euro trash at its finest.
| quote: | Yes, we've already covered that part--you are among the privileged exceptions.
But the music doesn't think like you. The DJs don't think like you. And certainly the trancecrackers don't.
So what must be done with them? You tell me. |
Nothing must be done with anyone. Everyone can appreciate the music that they enjoy as they please. Every individual can appreciate their music for whatever reason, without having to rationalize what the performer intends or what the listener gets out of it. |
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| RebeL9 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Trance-MB
Dutch DJ's are great crowd readers (but not only the Dutch), probably because they are able to play for huge crowds. Love Parade, Members of Mayday, Sensation, Mysteryland, Dance Valley, Tiesto In Concert, Trance Energy, Innercity. We are not talking about playing for 10.000 people, but many, many more.
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LOL! allow me to laugh. some people here deserves the nobel prize. |
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
That's like saying McDonalds is great food, because so many people eat there.
Argumentium ad Populum fallacy.
Actually, I'm a knockoff of Seanbaby. I predate Ed the Sock by a few years, easily.
stefanoc: No, I really do think I hit on something there. Not the culture as a whole, just its attitude towards trance music. Just look at American trance. Think of tracks like Josua Ryan - Pistolwhip, or Deepsky - Seance (or Stargazer), or Christopher Lawrence - Interceptor, or anything by Rabbit in the Moon or BT. Or hell, even Delerium or Adam Starr. Or just listen to what the bigger trance DJs mostly play....Lawrence, Kimball Collins, Micro, Max Graham, Sandra Collins....what do all these people have in common? Absolutely no bull fluffy euro disney e. They play good, solid, masculine trance. No saw wave explosions, no momentum-killing breakdowns, no inane snare rolls. No frills, no bull, no gimmicks, no ecstasy-maximizer trumpet anthems. Just damn fine good trance. The way it was meant to be.
Why is that? |
Oh, come on! Sandra Collins was hammering Airwave around the same time the Dutch superstars were, and that wasn't the only supersaw anthem with a ridiculous breakdown that she played during that period. Hell, she even closed her own Tranceport with it. Max Graham's productions get playtime by the likes of Tiësto and your average euro trance DJ, and many of his recent sets don't sound that much different from your standard Brit prog DJ. So is Sandra Collins, whose recent sets and the last one I heard live from her less than a year ago contained the hit parade of any prog, or even worse, any McProg DJ. Just look at the tracklist from her EM from last year:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...=sandra+collins
Where's the masculine American trance?
To me it seems like this is mostly whatever was hot in the Euro prog/house circuit at the moment, productions by: James Holden, Gabriel and Dresden, Nic Fanciulli, Eric Prydz, Adam Freeland, Tiefschwarz, Matthew Dekay, Attention Deficit, house remixes of classic rock.....
Geez, Sandra Collins's trance is so American and so real. :rolleyes:
The last set I heard Christopher Lawrence play also had euro anthems with ridiculous breakdowns that you would hear any week on ASOT. I heard him play Blank & Jones - Stars Shine Bright (Sam Sharp Remix), Solid Globe - Kalahari, Randy Katana - In Silence (Txitarro Mix). German and Dutch trance at its finest! :haha: At least unlike Collins and Graham he did play some of his signature Southwestern American-sounding trance, but the set was not nearly as pure and seamlessly unanthemic as you're making out these American trance crackers to be.
I saw RITM play a DJ set two weeks ago and they mostly played euro electro-house and tech house du jour. |
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| MichaelBoogerd! |
CNN Breaking News...
UN called in to discuss peace talks in latest Trance Addict Tiesto Flaming Thread...
:eyes: |
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| Abhay |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis86
Because the people that vote can't tell the difference between a trainwreck and a perfect mix? :wtf: |
....... and don't care.....
...... and don't have to care, as long as they enjoy the music.....
THis whole thread is pretty bloody nasty...
in the end, it's how much a crowd enjoys itself that matters. Ability to mix is purely a tool for the enjoyment. Not the source of it. |
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| Abhay |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
That's because you've ing MEMORIZED them. Pick a set you've never heard before, by any one of them, and you couldn't tell the difference. Guaranteed.
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I couldn't identify the DJ, but if u gave me a Tiest0rr set, and a PVD set, and it really WAS random, then i could tell the differnece.
oh yeah, and maybe an ASOT episode too....
i can tell just from the mixing style usually, and also the pace, and often tracks. Djs prefer to promote tracks from their own labels, or allied labels. Hence the different sounds. i have to admit, i haven't got updates on the very latest sets. So unless things have changed heaps in the past 4-5 months, then yeah, i couldn't tell the difference.
but hey, i might be wrong. who knows. |
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| Gauss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
It's not what he does wrong that makes him a bad DJ.
It's what he doesn't do at all.
Playing a record, and then playing another record 6 minutes later is not impressive. In the annals of competent DJing, it passes off as nothing more than slightly adequate.
Don't give me bull about "reading the crowd". Like there are people out there who don't know how to do that, and it's some mystical, magical skill that takes years of practice and hardwork to master. Please. It's a bull trumped-up accolade wrought from the pupil-dilated, cotton-spitting mouths of his hopping minions who still think he's performing his own original music live, all by himself. Children can read crowds. It's something we all pick up before the age of 10. So unless you're an alien who's never interacted with humans before and thus wouldn't understand posture and body language and genuine reactions, don't ing talk to me about his ability to "read the crowd". Yeah. Raise your arms in the air when the snare roll hits. Real ing rocket science there.
Don't give me bull about "track selection". As a human advertisement for his own productions, the productions of other artists on his label, and the productions of his friends and his friends' labels, that's all he plays and that's all he's interested in playing. He's there to sell music and furthergrade the publicity of his own clique of supertrance DJs and producers, not play anything special, new, inventive or engaging. He's even said his self-described "goal" is to play a 6 hour set of just his own work. Tell me: Are you seriously going to be impressed with that? If someone were smart, they could go ahead and beat Tiesto to the punch. Hell, I should go and do that right now, just for a lark. Will you call me #1 then? eh?
Don't give me bull about "taking you on a journey". He's playing solo tracks back to back, each track trying to outshine the others as the apex/climax of the whole mix, and that's the whole problem with the breakdown/anthem paradigm. Tracks don't blend into each other anymore, they repel each other, because each one is trying too hard to stand out, to be the UBER CHOON, to get played on Pete Tong's radio show so all the punters can buy a copy and the producer fills his coffers. Trance hasn't taken anyone on a journey for a terribly long time. You're not going on journeys, you're riding on merry-go-rounds, and for some ing reason you think that each time around the scenary is going to change.
(I'm speaking, of course, only of the trance that Tiesto plays. The Goa/Psy scene is exempt from this accusation)
So...take away the crowd, since pleasing them is like pleasing a child with candy. They're so stupid they'll like anything with a breakdown, a snare roll and an anthem. And take away the track selection, since it's never been about finding and playing rare, obscure, or hidden unknown cuts, but rather self-promotion and self-aggrandizement. Take away the journey, since trance hasn't been conducive to that sort of tapestry-like mixing since the mid 90s. And take away the DJing, because....well, let's face it: He doesn't really do very much of it. And what's left?
No, really. I want to know: What's left? I'll stop harping on Tiesto as soon as someone can rationally and reasonably justify to me why I should like him. |
Too much to read. |
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