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Please post a sample of a bad Tiesto mix (pg. 5)
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View this Thread in Original format
| Azz3D |
| quote: | Originally posted by Danny Ocean
i dont want to read u ing imbecil, i want to listen, hence why theyre are asking for SAMPLES. |
if you actually read the thread, you would know that a sample was posted
thats why i said
read the ing thread |
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
It's not what he does wrong that makes him a bad DJ.
It's what he doesn't do at all.
Playing a record, and then playing another record 6 minutes later is not impressive. In the annals of competent DJing, it passes off as nothing more than slightly adequate.
Don't give me bull about "reading the crowd". Like there are people out there who don't know how to do that, and it's some mystical, magical skill that takes years of practice and hardwork to master. Please. It's a bull trumped-up accolade wrought from the pupil-dilated, cotton-spitting mouths of his hopping minions who still think he's performing his own original music live, all by himself. Children can read crowds. It's something we all pick up before the age of 10. So unless you're an alien who's never interacted with humans before and thus wouldn't understand posture and body language and genuine reactions, don't ing talk to me about his ability to "read the crowd". Yeah. Raise your arms in the air when the snare roll hits. Real ing rocket science there.
Don't give me bull about "track selection". As a human advertisement for his own productions, the productions of other artists on his label, and the productions of his friends and his friends' labels, that's all he plays and that's all he's interested in playing. He's there to sell music and furthergrade the publicity of his own clique of supertrance DJs and producers, not play anything special, new, inventive or engaging. He's even said his self-described "goal" is to play a 6 hour set of just his own work. Tell me: Are you seriously going to be impressed with that? If someone were smart, they could go ahead and beat Tiesto to the punch. Hell, I should go and do that right now, just for a lark. Will you call me #1 then? eh?
Don't give me bull about "taking you on a journey". He's playing solo tracks back to back, each track trying to outshine the others as the apex/climax of the whole mix, and that's the whole problem with the breakdown/anthem paradigm. Tracks don't blend into each other anymore, they repel each other, because each one is trying too hard to stand out, to be the UBER CHOON, to get played on Pete Tong's radio show so all the punters can buy a copy and the producer fills his coffers. Trance hasn't taken anyone on a journey for a terribly long time. You're not going on journeys, you're riding on merry-go-rounds, and for some ing reason you think that each time around the scenary is going to change.
(I'm speaking, of course, only of the trance that Tiesto plays. The Goa/Psy scene is exempt from this accusation)
So...take away the crowd, since pleasing them is like pleasing a child with candy. They're so stupid they'll like anything with a breakdown, a snare roll and an anthem. And take away the track selection, since it's never been about finding and playing rare, obscure, or hidden unknown cuts, but rather self-promotion and self-aggrandizement. Take away the journey, since trance hasn't been conducive to that sort of tapestry-like mixing since the mid 90s. And take away the DJing, because....well, let's face it: He doesn't really do very much of it. And what's left?
No, really. I want to know: What's left? I'll stop harping on Tiesto as soon as someone can rationally and reasonably justify to me why I should like him. |
I agree with you in that playing a record, and then playing another record 6 minutes later is not impressive at all. As far as technical DJ skills go, probably not many trance or prog DJs would be in the top 100.
However, your analysis of crowd reading and track selection is deeply flawed, for the simple reason that you've never been into the aesthetics of epic/Central European trance and therefore, you don't really understand them. You see, once upon a time, people went to their local club and wanted to dance to the latest trance anthem, be it Love Stimulation, Stella, For An Angel, EL Niño, 1998, Gouryella.....those tracks were ing fun to dance to! It wasn't about DJ worshipping or the commercial marketing behind the anthem....it was simply the music that composed the track that made it silly and fun dancefloor material.
The problem with your analysis is that you start off from the premise that even those older tracks (from the 1993- early 1999 era) are worthless because of the buildup-snare roll-anthemic characteristics. Well, you have every right to have disliked those tracks back then, but some people did enjoy them in the dancefloor back then exclusively for their musical values. It was the first expression and edm revival of an old European (and definitely 'white cracker that can't dance') tradition: linear, melodic, structured and nuanced dance music.
History unfolded and while those years went by the cult of personality to certain DJ/producers grew stronger. This was due mainly to the fact that a few DJs were the principal exponent of certain styles within the euro trance genre. Be it Sven Vath, PvD, Humate...Sasha, Digweed, Oakenfold who would play just about anything that was hot....and later on the Dutch movement consolidating out of hardcore with Tiësto as the main DJ, but backed up with experienced producers such as Ferry, Armin as kid, M.I.K.E., and so on.
Marketing and commercial success definitely spun off the celebrity personas of the likes of Oakenfold....he can take a lot of credit for exporting that anthemic sound all over the world in the late 90s and making it as popular as it is today. Sasha and Digweed and the likes were always doing their own thing a bit edgier, and also consolidated that "progressive-minded" base. The central Europeans such as PvD and Tiësto appealed to the heart and soul of their own people with the epic and very Germanic aesthetics in their own flavor of edm. Those artistic alignments formed the basic divisions for trance and prog in the early 21st century, but they have definitely evolved beyond recognition.
Now back to crowd reading , musical aesthetics and the construction of the musical journey.....you just have to listen to the first Tiësto livesets and mix compilations in the mid to late 90s to understand what he was striving for. Tiësto was virtually unknown...he was just doing his Dutch thing. I remember being a teenager who was brought up in the classical music world and being mystified when I heard such sets. Why? Because, they were a contemporary version of the epic Germanic ideals of late 19th century Romantic Austro-German music a la Wagner and Brahms....but being fun and danceable at the same time! Now I'm not saying that Tiësto or any of those guys have ever been even close to the grandiosity of the old metaphysical German composers. That would be blasphemy.
But they definitely did exploit and took to the dancefloor for the first time those ethnic aesthetics. Just listen a set like Tiësto- Innercity 1999. I don't think you have to know much about harmonic progression and music theory to understand the cohesiveness in a central European fashion through the soothing transitions and the development of the musical narrative throughout the set.
Tiësto was even doing his trademark sharp dissonant melodic and rhythmic contrasts back then, but in a much more traditional way. Now this takes me to another point, which is how us trance crackers have been able for almost a decade to pick apart 5 minutes of any live set or performance and be able to tell the differences between Tiësto, Oakenfold, PvD, Armin, Ferry, etc....They own have their own approach to creating a journey through European trance (and not just that after a few years actually). Some are more traditional and predictable, others are more experimental and inconsistent. Some will always develop a structured narrative that always goes down up up down, others will do quite unpredictable structures, and at other times will not care about the narrative of their sets at all. Some DJs will go beyond epic trance and play funky house, hard techno, breaks, progressive and others will stay with the same type of melodic uplifting trance forever. Some will mix in those other genres in clashing and dissonant ways, others will try to water them down through smoothness in the transition.....This is all a product of crowd reading and the ability to create a musical journey.
To tell you the truth, in order to create a musical journey for my ears with euro trance, a genre I rarely listen to much these days, the DJ would have to do something musically that goes way beyond the norm. Most DJs simply can't do it, not Tiësto, not PvD....only in rare occasions are they able to grab back my attention. It all went went downhill-musically speaking- after Tiësto was crowned #1 in 2002. But the fact is that it is still possible, yet only when those aesthetics are reinvented and evolved to the times of the listener.
| quote: | | No, really. I want to know: What's left? I'll stop harping on Tiesto as soon as someone can rationally and reasonably justify to me why I should like him. |
That's the thing. You SHOULDN'T like it. It's not meant for you. But it is meant for other people, and not always for the oversimplified reason that they are clueless newbies or idiotic fanboys (even if that's the case for a lot of people). |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
You see, once upon a time, people went to their local club and wanted to dance to the latest trance anthem, be it Love Stimulation, Stella, For An Angel, EL Niño, 1998, Gouryella.....
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Wrong. Once upon a time, people went to dance to music. It was mostly faceless, nameless, clandestine and deliberately kept out of the spotlight. The aim of the music was to aid the DJ to put together cohesive, undending streams of music. The infinite beat. The unresolved song. Where the music melted into a repetitive groove, that locked biorhythms, heartbeats, and dance patterns into a single cadence.
None of it was meant to come to the forefront. The music was cheap to make, cheaper to press, and deliberately disposable. None of the producers or DJs cared about fame and fortune. They came together, formed short partnerships, released a couple tracks as pseudonyms, and moved on. The idea was the sound, the groove, and the beat. Not the names.
So if the music is never ending, what are you waiting for? You're not waiting for anything. You're waiting for the now. The present. You are a participant of blip culture. The end of sequential, linear thought, where everything is the now.
In time, of course, as pop market aesthetes were applied to this eclectic scene, you had the super tracks above. But only after the fact. Delerium - Silence was released in 97. When did it actually become a hit? ....see?
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
The problem with your analysis is that you start off from the premise that even those older tracks (from the 1993- early 1999 era) are worthless because of the buildup-snare roll-anthemic characteristics.
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No I don't. There's nothing particularly wrong with a breakdown or a memorable melody. But when it's every track, and moreover every track is constructed from the point of view to deliberately FIGHT with every other track for all the adulation in the mix...that's when the mix falls apart. Because it's no longer about that unending, unceasing song that permeates in perpetuity. It's now about that moment in the song where everyone goes "I love this part". People no longer living for the now, but the expectation of the anthem, to cheer, to celebrate, to cease being in the now, but longing, and living, anticipating for what they think the song will bring to them. If the moment is annihilated, then so will the song. The feeling no longer lasts, mores and norms are no longer suspended. The outside world of social pretentiousnes has corrupted it.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Just listen a set like Tiësto- Innercity 1999.
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I did. It was bombastic crap.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I don't think you have to know much about harmonic progression and music theory to understand the cohesiveness in a central European fashion through the soothing transitions and the development of the musical narrative throughout the set.
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Wow, you sure can shovel it with the best of them.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Now this takes me to another point, which is how us trance crackers have been able for almost a decade to pick apart 5 minutes of any live set or performance and be able to tell the differences between Tiësto, Oakenfold, PvD, Armin, Ferry, etc....
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That's because you've ing MEMORIZED them. Pick a set you've never heard before, by any one of them, and you couldn't tell the difference. Guaranteed.
I'd love to put anyone on this site up to the challenge. Pick the set, find out if they can identify the DJ.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Some will always develop a structured narrative that always goes down up up down, others will do quite unpredictable structures, and at other times will not care about the narrative of their sets at all.
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Show me.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
This is all a product of crowd reading and the ability to create a musical journey.
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How do you crowd-read something you produced in a music studio?
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
To tell you the truth, in order to create a musical journey for my ears with euro trance, a genre I rarely listen to much these days, the DJ would have to do something musically that goes way beyond the norm. Most DJs simply can't do it, not Tiësto, not PvD....only in rare occasions are they able to grab back my attention. It all went went downhill-musically speaking- after Tiësto was crowned #1 in 2002.
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Yeah, and I can explain why: It's because the novelty of trance music has worn off on you after listening to so many hundreds of sets, so many DJs, and its all meshing into a "been there, done that" feeling. The rollercoaster is never as exciting the 500th time you go on it than it is the first time you ride on it. In short, it's because the music has no sustenance, it is cheap, shallow, and gimmicky, and you are drifting away from it because each subsequent use is not giving you the same high as before, so to speak. You are burning out. My advice: go away. Move on, and listen to something else for awhile.
I think I've spoken to you before. You sound very familiar.....you're the only guy on TA who defends trance music by going into a bull diatribe about the cultural aesthetics of central europe, like it's some deep-rooted magical teutonic connection that no one can possibly understand unless they're Dutch. Yeah. You should just save yourself the trouble and say "You just don't get it, man! You're not part of the secret club!"....I'd go along with that.
/mental note: don't smoke peyote and go on TA ever again |
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| Azz3D |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
That's because you've ing MEMORIZED them. Pick a set you've never heard before, by any one of them, and you couldn't tell the difference. Guaranteed.
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HAHA BRILLIANT:D |
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| SuspicionVandit |
| yes, we all hate each other in this thread. and there was a sample posted in this thread. if u don't look for it, u won't find it and that'd be your fault. |
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| Mindphaser |
| You guys have nothing better to do then looking for a mistake who someone made? |
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Wrong. Once upon a time, people went to dance to music. It was mostly faceless, nameless, clandestine and deliberately kept out of the spotlight. The aim of the music was to aid the DJ to put together cohesive, undending streams of music. The infinite beat. The unresolved song. Where the music melted into a repetitive groove, that locked biorhythms, heartbeats, and dance patterns into a single cadence.
None of it was meant to come to the forefront. The music was cheap to make, cheaper to press, and deliberately disposable. None of the producers or DJs cared about fame and fortune. They came together, formed short partnerships, released a couple tracks as pseudonyms, and moved on. The idea was the sound, the groove, and the beat. Not the names.
So if the music is never ending, what are you waiting for? You're not waiting for anything. You're waiting for the now. The present. You are a participant of blip culture. The end of sequential, linear thought, where everything is the now. |
That's true, but that doesn't really contradict the point I made about European trance in the olden days. That's why even the big pop trance superstars of today released most of their tracks back then under pseudonyms such as Allure, Viframa, Stray Dog, Humate, Moonman, Airscape, Hammock Brothers, Major League, Gouryella, Balearic Bill, Age of Love and so many more. They were just as faceless throughout the early stages of trance in the 90s up until those pop market aesthetes were applied at the turn of the century.
| quote: | | No I don't. There's nothing particularly wrong with a breakdown or a memorable melody. But when it's every track, and moreover every track is constructed from the point of view to deliberately FIGHT with every other track for all the adulation in the mix...that's when the mix falls apart. Because it's no longer about that unending, unceasing song that permeates in perpetuity. It's now about that moment in the song where everyone goes "I love this part". People no longer living for the now, but the expectation of the anthem, to cheer, to celebrate, to cease being in the now, but longing, and living, anticipating for what they think the song will bring to them. If the moment is annihilated, then so will the song. The feeling no longer lasts, mores and norms are no longer suspended. The outside world of social pretentiousnes has corrupted it. |
That's right. But the mix fell apart from your perspective, not as an universal credo for everyone in the know. Some people actually enjoyed the sense of timing and the expectation of the anthem as a means for building up euphoria in the dancefloor. It was millenium music at its best, exploiting the now with a sense of the future, of what was to come. Of course it is pretentious, but it is also silly fun for people in the dancefloor, who went to the club to dance music that appealed to their senses at the time. What is wrong with people enjoying themselves with that kind of music? You assume that it was all due to brainless DJ worshipping, but there was more to it than just that.
I agree that this music pretty much destroyed the basic tenets and idealism of rave culture, but people still had fun with it music-wise for the subconscious aesthetics reasons that I already mentioned. That's all that counts. Dancing and having fun with the msuic.
| quote: | That's because you've ing MEMORIZED them. Pick a set you've never heard before, by any one of them, and you couldn't tell the difference. Guaranteed.
I'd love to put anyone on this site up to the challenge. Pick the set, find out if they can identify the DJ. |
I haven't memorized anything, especially nothing of that sort in the past 3 years. But I'd be up to the challenge and I guarantee that I could tell the difference between and Oakenfold and Tiësto and PvD set the same way I can tell the difference between a symphonic piece by Shostakovich and another one by Prokofiev, even if they are both Soviet social realist modernist composers.
Whenever I have time to dissect a few sets I would gladly do so.
| quote: | | How do you crowd-read something you produced in a music studio? |
Crowd-reading is limited to live sets...even if the artist can try to "imitate" that effect in a mix comp, it obviously doesn't apply there.
| quote: | | Yeah, and I can explain why: It's because the novelty of trance music has worn off on you after listening to so many hundreds of sets, so many DJs, and its all meshing into a "been there, done that" feeling. The rollercoaster is never as exciting the 500th time you go on it than it is the first time you ride on it. In short, it's because the music has no sustenance, it is cheap, shallow, and gimmicky, and you are drifting away from it because each subsequent use is not giving you the same high as before, so to speak. You are burning out. My advice: go away. Move on, and listen to something else for awhile. |
There's some truth to the burnout effect you're talking about, and that's why the only way a trance DJ can be effective this days is by going out of the box genre-wise and being able to do something different.
In regards to your advice, thanks but I've been listening to other kinds of electronic music ever since I got into this whole thing. From Daft Punk to Squarepusher to Pierre Boulez, my ears are open.
| quote: | | I think I've spoken to you before. You sound very familiar.....you're the only guy on TA who defends trance music by going into a bull diatribe about the cultural aesthetics of central europe, like it's some deep-rooted magical teutonic connection that no one can possibly understand unless they're Dutch. Yeah. You should just save yourself the trouble and say "You just don't get it, man! You're not part of the secret club!"....I'd go along with that. |
Yes you have. And it's not much as a secret club but a clash of context, perspective and circumstances.
I agree with much of what you have to say in general and I've been a frequent reader of your site for years. Musically I definitely understand where you're coming from. Keep up the good work. |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Some people actually enjoyed the sense of timing and the expectation of the anthem as a means for building up euphoria in the dancefloor. It was millenium music at its best, exploiting the now with a sense of the future, of what was to come. Of course it is pretentious, but it is also silly fun for people in the dancefloor, who went to the club to dance music that appealed to their senses at the time. What is wrong with people enjoying themselves with that kind of music?
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Hell no. That's what eurodance is for.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
You assume that it was all due to brainless DJ worshipping, but there was more to it than just that.
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Prove it.
Take away the DJs, watch interest in trance sink like a stone. Throw a party, a clubnight....do not advertise the DJs on the flyer or anywhere. Watch.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Dancing and having fun with the msuic.
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Yes, but its top-down, not bottom-up. It's not stochastic, ergo it can not sustain itself.
http://www.ishkur.com/articles/trancecracker.php
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I haven't memorized anything
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Yes you have, you actually told me these exact words in another thread...jeez...couple years ago at least. Didn't you go by another name back then?
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I could tell the difference between and Oakenfold and Tiësto and PvD set the same way I can tell the difference between a symphonic piece by Shostakovich and another one by Prokofiev, even if they are both Soviet social realist modernist composers.
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Don't compare musicians with DJs. Musicians have a flavour and style that is easy to identify because it's something they made. DJs? They are playing other people's music, ergo they have no flavour or style. They are at the mercy of the tracks they choose which isn't very dissimilar from one another.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Crowd-reading is limited to live sets...even if the artist can try to "imitate" that effect in a mix comp, it obviously doesn't apply there.
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Okay, so enlighten me: What is it that a big DJ does to "read the crowd" that makes him so much better and worthy than an amateur DJ who "reads the crowd". What is the amateur DJ doing that is not as effective crowd reading as the big DJ. Provide actual, physical examples. Present your answer in point-form. |
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| iammesol |
This is the saddest thread I've ever seen :eyespop:
People! If you like the DJ.... like him!
If you don't... DON'T LISTEN!!!
errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr |
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| Aiwendil |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Okay, so enlighten me: What is it that a big DJ does to "read the crowd" that makes him so much better and worthy than an amateur DJ who "reads the crowd". What is the amateur DJ doing that is not as effective crowd reading as the big DJ. Provide actual, physical examples. Present your answer in point-form. |
Make no mistake. He has plenty of theories backed up by theories backed up by a musicology degree to throw in your direction. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Yes you have, you actually told me these exact words in another thread...jeez...couple years ago at least. Didn't you go by another name back then?
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You may be thinking of someone called Yale Trance, who I haven't seen here for a long time. |
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