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Please post a sample of a bad Tiesto mix (pg. 29)
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| dinoXpress |
| i could go for some McNuggets right now... |
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| miamitranceman |
| Ishkur, things were calming down here till you starting posting frivilous "show me, what is?, prove it, eat me," comments. |
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
But the story doesn't end there. Because perspectives can be right and wrong. And that is why we argue. |
Yeah and I've also heard Bill O'Reilly say that...anyone to his left is just wrong. :haha:
Remember that when it comes to art, I personally don't believe that a debate can be polarized into black and white extremes or even snarky punditry.
I could dissect every single McProg track out there in order to draw out all the common factors of assembly line mass production (and trust me, the similar percs, basslines, esoteric melodies, general vibe and such are easily identifiable) , but that would require actually listening to these productions again. I would do it, but right now I don't have the time or patience for it.
| quote: | | This is all fine and dandy, and I'm inclined to agree with you, but I still fail to see where the correlation lies in connecting it with the streamlined process of fast food. |
You have to understand, I was not enlightened through any kind of creative process when I came up with the term. I didn't develop an elaborate theory to substantiate the use of the word at all.
I just came up with it pretty much randomly in a review thread for Markus Schulz's first mix compilation. I told you why already. After a year or so of listening to this style being hammered occasionally by the euro trance DJs, but concentrated mainly in the DJ sets of Markus Schulz and his kin, I realized that the cookiecutter formula that falsely pretended to be prog was unmasking itself for what it really was and for what it wasn't.
I used the fast food analogy as a reaction to its fakeness, to its cookie-cutter, oversaturated production aesthetics, to the huge influx of tracks that followed this mold, and for supposedly intending to make "prog" easier to digest. This style of music is marketed to the trance crackers and sold as a step up from epic trance. It is actually sold as edgy, trendy and "groundbreaking" progressive. The marketing campaign has fooled a lot of people into actually believing this lie.....just like McDonalds or any fast food chain fools its costumers into believing that they are eating real food.
I don't know if in Canada you're familiar with these other type of restaurant chains, but maybe an analogy with the likes of Maccaroni Grill, Olive Garden, Outback, etc. would've been more appropiate. These are restaurant chains of mass produced Italian food or steakhouses that fools people into believing that they are getting the real thing in a fancy restaurant when in fact this is just mass produced food in a pretentious and false setting designed by the corporate world. Never mind....these food analogies are getting out of hand.
Listen to the damn music from the labels I told you!
| quote: | | Sure. But that's immaterial. |
That's what I told you when you went on and on about the intentions of epic trance. ;)
| quote: | | Blink182 is too polished and smooth to be punk. It is pop punk. I wouldn't call it McPunk because there is no saturation movement to churn out similar sounding music. Unless I missed this trend. |
I never really followed the trends spelled out by MTV, but I thought that Blink 182 was one of many other "punk pop" groups that saturated the MTV youth market in the early-mid nineties.
| quote: | | And yet you're defending ing Tiesto. |
I'm human after all....
| quote: | All valid points, and all I agree with, but all completely and totally irrelevent. I want to see what the template looks like, what it's main features are, and how it has come to dominate the electronic music landscape.
In other words: Show me the burger fryer. Show me the "billions and billions sold" monolithic logos. Because at the moment all you've told me is that this prog music has remixed epic trance to kingdom come. Okay. Sure. But that doesn't make it "Mc". At the most, it's just bad music. Call it Pop Prog if you want. Or Epic Prog. At the moment, that's kind of what I'm leaning towards. |
As I told you, there's no real science behind the McProg moniker (at least not elaborated by myself yet). Call it epic prog or whatever you want, it doesn't matter. But the fact is that in less than two years the despective term has spread through the scene, just like clownstep did in the dnb scene a few years before that.
Other people here like Cobalt have suggested the use of the term "American progressive" because the style was pioneered in San Francisco and Miami, but I disagree with that term for a few reasons. First of all, it does a disservice to the actual prog producers that have come from America...and also because the Euro scene has had a huge influence and a bunch of artists that have been instrumental in its development. |
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| dinoXpress |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I don't know if in Canada you're familiar with these other type of restaurant chains, but maybe an analogy with the likes of Maccaroni Grill, Olive Garden, Outback, etc. would've been more appropiate. These are restaurant chains of mass produced Italian food or steakhouses that fools people into believing that they are getting the real thing in a fancy restaurant when in fact this is just mass produced food in a pretentious and false setting designed by the corporate world. Never mind....these food analogies are getting out of hand.
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:stongue: :stongue: :stongue: :stongue: :stongue: :stongue: :stongue: |
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| Numidia |
| We have a million of those types of restaurants here... |
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| MichaelBoogerd! |
| quote: | Originally posted by RebeL9
Actually I don't even understand why I bother to comment on Tiesto. Haven't been listening to him for ages. I heard the Disneyland set and was shocked how awful he played. I was like "comeon even the most naive and hardcore Tiesto fans can't like this garbage?" :wtf:
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Indeed... id consider myself hardcore Tiesto fan, and i cant stand that set.
But i dont judge him on that one alone... cos a fortnight before he had blown the roof off of Space Miami with a 6 hours set... and a fortnight later he played a similar extended set in the HMH and again made up for the doge that was Disney.
Perhaps we should just draw the conclusion he is consistently inconsistent and put this one to bed? |
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| MichaelBoogerd! |
| quote: | Originally posted by Swamper
The Heineken set is a very nice listen indeed.
IMO, not being #1 again this year is the best thing that could've happened to him. |
Big +1 to that.
Although a lot of the Breezah fans are crying into their pillows that he lost the crown, anyone with sense can think positively that he isn't quite so in the spotlight in 2006.
Behind the scenes (and the obviously diplomatic press answers) :D he is a very relieved man. |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Yeah and I've also heard Bill O'Reilly say that...anyone to his left is just wrong.
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Argumentium ad authoritum. You think mentioning Bill O'Reilly discredits the fact that opinions, supported by facts, empirical research, reasoning, testing and critical analysis can be made more right than others. That's the nature of argument. It happens all the time. Take a debate class.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Remember that when it comes to art, I personally don't believe that a debate can be polarized into black and white extremes or even snarky punditry.
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Well, you're certainly failing at that, aren't you?
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I could dissect every single McProg track out there
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Can't you just ing give me an outline of the structure and why it is cheap to make and ready to order? ....you keep saying this. "I have the answer, but I won't tell you." How hard is it to just spend a paragraph describing the core elements common and ripped off in every McProg tune? That's 30 seconds out of your day. Considering how much time you've invested in this argument, that's a bucket in the ocean.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
You have to understand, I was not enlightened through any kind of creative process when I came up with the term. I didn't develop an elaborate theory to substantiate the use of the word at all.
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Bad form, then. Call it something else.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I used the fast food analogy as a reaction to its fakeness, to its cookie-cutter, oversaturated production aesthetics, to the huge influx of tracks that followed this mold, and for supposedly intending to make "prog" easier to digest.
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I have a better theory: You liked my term and wanted to rip it off for a form of sacharine progressive music that you loathed. It was turning the music you loved into e, and it was destroying the ethos upon which it was built upon. And it was lying to itself. It was music pretending it was something its not.
Now you know how I feel toward Tiesto and Dutch trance.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Listen to the damn music from the labels I told you!
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The onus isn't on me to prove your argument. You made it. You back it up.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
That's what I told you when you went on and on about the intentions of epic trance. ;)
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Yeah, but you were wrong.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I never really followed the trends spelled out by MTV, but I thought that Blink 182 was one of many other "punk pop" groups that saturated the MTV youth market in the early-mid nineties.
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I can name....two. Three, I think.
That's not a saturation movement.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I'm human after all....
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And you have this amazing capacity for self-deception. How on earth do you do that?
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
But the fact is that in less than two years the despective term has spread through the scene, just like clownstep did in the dnb scene a few years before that.
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I love that our arguments have reversed now. You're now talking about a form of music that you revile, divorced itself from music that you love, and you complain that trancecrackers can't tell the difference.
It's almost like you're recycling my own arguments against me. The difference being, of course, that you are working from a position of hypocrisy and contradiction. You're complaining incessantly about this McProg stuff, but you're willing to give Epic a free pass when it is even more fake, more canned, and more revoltingly forced and affected than prog will ever be. And you defend the DJs who play it. |
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Argumentium ad authoritum. You think mentioning Bill O'Reilly discredits the fact that opinions, supported by facts, empirical research, reasoning, testing and critical analysis can be made more right than others. That's the nature of argument. It happens all the time. Take a debate class. |
Absolutism vs. Relativism. We've already covered this.
| quote: | | Well, you're certainly failing at that, aren't you? |
No, our perspectives aren't really that polarized. You just insist on making them appear that way. They are different, but not black and white opposites.
| quote: |
Can't you just ing give me an outline of the structure and why it is cheap to make and ready to order? ....you keep saying this. "I have the answer, but I won't tell you." How hard is it to just spend a paragraph describing the core elements common and ripped off in every McProg tune? That's 30 seconds out of your day. Considering how much time you've invested in this argument, that's a bucket in the ocean. |
The technical common factors vary from producer to producer. But the general trend is pretty clear. Most of these tracks use the cookie-cutter epic structure in and out. What makes them different from actual epic trance is that through their production aesthetics it's trying really hard to sound like prog. What makes it different from actual prog is its structure and the vibe conveyed by their common esoteric, melodic synthlines. I would love to actually listen to some of these tracks right now so I could get into their technical aspects, aand I could do it when the holidays start for me in a week or so.
| quote: | Bad form, then. Call it something else.
I have a better theory: You liked my term and wanted to rip it off for a form of sacharine progressive music that you loathed. It was turning the music you loved into e, and it was destroying the ethos upon which it was built upon. And it was lying to itself. It was music pretending it was something its not. |
I already told you I ripped it off, that's not new. That's a fact, it's an analogous term.You can call it something else if you really think the term is not appropriate but that style is already known as such.
| quote: | | Now you know how I feel toward Tiesto and Dutch trance. |
I've always known and I don't mind, I just don't agree. Some people here love McProg and I respect them just as much. I even enjoy a few McProg tracks here and then when mixed with other genres in order to spice up the experience. What I really despise is when it turns monotonous, and all the tracks played in a set convey the same ing style. I know you would say the same about any Dutch trance DJ, but that wouldn't be totally honest. For example, your review of Ferry Corsten's Creamfields (CD 1) wasn't bad at all for a Dutch trance DJ's mix compilation. You gave it 3 out of 5 precisely for its diversification. That's what's it's all about, even if the DJ's musical taste is shady for your own taste
| quote: | | The onus isn't on me to prove your argument. You made it. You back it up. |
And all of this as a result of a simple joke....
| quote: | | Yeah, but you were wrong. |
I'm always going to be wrong there for you from your perspective....not surprised there. I don't care about the intentions of any music as long as I enjoy it and makes me dance....even McProg.
| quote: | | And you have this amazing capacity for self-deception. How on earth do you do that? |
I was being ironic....
| quote: | I love that our arguments have reversed now. You're now talking about a form of music that you revile, divorced itself from music that you love, and you complain that trancecrackers can't tell the difference.
It's almost like you're recycling my own arguments against me. The difference being, of course, that you are working from a position of hypocrisy and contradiction. You're complaining incessantly about this McProg stuff, but you're willing to give Epic a free pass when it is even more fake, more canned, and more revoltingly forced and affected than prog will ever be. And you defend the DJs who play it. |
See, but I've always been able to tell the difference. Explaining why it is possible for me to enjoy a certain genre, even if it is for its aesthetics or for its silliness, is not giving the genre a free pass. I'm just rationalizing my taste. And as I told you before, I don't HATE McProg as much as you think, I just describe its aesthetics from my perspective. |
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| RapidFire |
2:30 into that Heineken set is NUTS :eek:.you wouldnt happen to have the TL for it would ya? |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Absolutism vs. Relativism. We've already covered this.
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Hey, don't look at me. You're the one waffling about.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
No, our perspectives aren't really that polarized. You just insist on making them appear that way. They are different, but not black and white opposites.
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I fail to see what this has to do with anything. If you want to make this into a me vs. you dichotomy, go right ahead. I'm presenting arguments and facts. You're arguing the merits of them.
Sheesh.
Everyone knows that if it wasn't me you were arguing with, this thread would have sunk away a long time ago.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
The technical common factors vary from producer to producer.
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That doesn't make it "Mc" then.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Most of these tracks use the cookie-cutter epic structure in and out.
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I have since listened to the tracks. Most of them aren't even prog. Or are even trying to be prog. they're just bad vocal trance.
Do you even know what prog is?
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I've always known and I don't mind, I just don't agree.
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Do you have any idea how much of a ing hypocrite that makes you?
Hating on a style of music because it's a cheap, aimless knockoff but praising another musical genre for those same attributes. Wow. Yeah. That's moral relativism for you. Hate me for dealing in extremes and absolutes, but at least I'm consistent. People know where I stand. You're just an opportunist with no real intellectual grounding. Untrustworthy and uncouth. After this revelation, what stock can be put in what you say at all? This just cements everything you said as being what it really is and what I had suspected from the very beginning: That it's all just empty piles of bull. Dumptrucks full of it. But if you say it in an intellectually haughty enough manner, the peons will believe anything, right?
heh.
And all of this as a result of a simple joke....
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I'm always going to be wrong there for you from your perspective
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If you're wrong, you're wrong. That's not my fault. Don't get in a snit because I called you out on your bull.
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
I was being ironic....
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No you weren't. |
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