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Please post a sample of a bad Tiesto mix (pg. 27)
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| SpecRadio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Thank you. That's all I wanted to hear. About time it took you five bloody pages to admit this.
Yeah, that's not due to culture though. That's due to ripping off a good idea when one sees it for easy opportunism.
Noooo....you're not getting it. The whole "Mc" monicker comes from "McDonalds", and refers to the preparation and consumption of fast food. Epic trance was simple, cheap and easy to make, following a template formula, with no creativity or redeeming qualities whatsoever. Quantity over quality.
Show me where this "assembly line" process was applied to prog. I don't think I've heard of any kind of formula developing to any sizable extent in the body of prog music, though all producers tend to re-use their own techniques, making their own works derivative and same-sounding. But as far as I know, prog is its own beast. Boring and monotonous, yes, but every producer/track is still being creative with it. Prog has never stooped to such a level as to mandate that all tracks follow a cookie-cutter template. You don't have all prog tunes, across the board, all sounding the same down to the drum tracks, with nothing but minor key values changed. And they aren't churned out at a feverish pace to feed the demand, since there's never been much of a high demand in the first place, so the urgency was never there to strike while the iron is hot and release pulp prog for mass consumption. Unless there's something that occurred in the prog movement that I'm not aware of.
If so, do tell.
I wouldn't call that McProg, just prog remixes of really bad epic trance (aka vocal trance). It's called trendwhoring, which is the tendancy to, when there's a new trendy style in vogue, taking a classic popular song that everyone knows and loves (mainstay, canonical songs which should by no means EVER BE ING TOUCHED) and updating it in the new trendy style. For example: Masif Dj’s – Children (Steve Hill Vs D10 Mix) (which is really Robert Miles - Children: the Hardstyle edition)
Give me examples of McProg which aren't remixes, and which literally controlled the entire progressive landscape for a few years. I'm still fence-sitting on this, but if I can find more worthy examples, labels, artists n such....man, this is going in v3. |
You and Pio need to stop. Just hold hands and make out or something. It's getting annoying seeing quotes that last 10 minutes on my scroll wheel. |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Nah... I don't go in for this "dance music should be brought to the people!" stuff. People rave about hearing a track on a TV show, or at the Olympics, or an album winning some crappy music award... I don't see why. Dance music has and still does cross over on a regular basis, and I'm all for seeing dance music in the charts and on TV, provided it got there by being so popular with the community that it got wider recognition, ie Leftfield or The Prodigy, rather than someone like Tiesto constantly trying to barge into pop culture despite the fact that he still can't sell a tenth of the records a new Prodigy album will shift. TiC was put across as some sort of record breaking achievement, when it really wasn't. Tiesto is trying to hype up what are respectable achievements (getting 25,000 people into a stadium is still impressive) into world-shattering feats of brilliance. Tiesto fans (and I'm not calling you one) try and put across his achievements as unparalleled, but it's just a ruse for him to try and get into the mainstream without actually doing anything. The Prodigy played to 250,000 people in Moscow (ten times more than TiC) but you won't find them bragging about it, or releasing a DVD of it, or fronting it as a superhuman achievement. |
This is on the back of the Tiesto: In Concert DVD:
Who here can honestly tell me that when they read this they don't throw up in their mouths a little. |
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| lazy chick |
| Tijs wrecked on isos 4, i think mixing into deekay, i dont remember exactly if that was the spot... |
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| RebeL9 |
on Nyana CD1
i remember the transition between Tiësto vs. Junkie XL - Obsession (Frank Biazzi Remix) into -> Planisphere - Totem is really crap. there are loads of other ty transitions on this CD but this one was something even a newbie could do better. |
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| Coup |
| Tiesto - ISOS 4 is poorly mixed. the tunes are good, but the mixing is hardly what u would associate with "teh worlds #1". |
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| Rockabye |
I don't know why Tiesto didn't mix ISOS 4 a second time?
I mean he MUST have recognized after mixing that he hasn't done his best...
So why don't he spin for a second, third or fourth time until it's nearly perfect?
Talking about the tracklist there are many very good tunes on ISOS 4 but I think Tiesto shold have stayed at a single mix like ISOS1-3. Because of 2 mixes he had many average songs on the CD. It would be better to have one mix of 14 or 15 tracks that are wisely selected and well mixed... |
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Thank you. That's all I wanted to hear. About time it took you five bloody pages to admit this. |
Well I haven't changed my original stance, probably just explained myself a bit better.
| quote: | | Yeah, that's not due to culture though. That's due to ripping off a good idea when one sees it for easy opportunism. |
We have different perspectives. End of.
| quote: | | Noooo....you're not getting it. The whole "Mc" monicker comes from "McDonalds", and refers to the preparation and consumption of fast food. Epic trance was simple, cheap and easy to make, following a template formula, with no creativity or redeeming qualities whatsoever. Quantity over quality. |
This quote was a response to my description of the pre-McProg era, in other words, I was talking about actual prog. McProg doesn't really come in as a stylistic movement until about 4 years later. The template in pretty much most productions by Markus Schulz, Prosbot, Gabriel and Dresden, Perry O'Neil, Elevation and such is quite evident.
| quote: | Show me where this "assembly line" process was applied to prog. I don't think I've heard of any kind of formula developing to any sizable extent in the body of prog music, though all producers tend to re-use their own techniques, making their own works derivative and same-sounding. But as far as I know, prog is its own beast. Boring and monotonous, yes, but every producer/track is still being creative with it.
If so, do tell.
I wouldn't call that McProg, just prog remixes of really bad epic trance (aka vocal trance). It's called trendwhoring, which is the tendancy to, when there's a new trendy style in vogue, taking a classic popular song that everyone knows and loves (mainstay, canonical songs which should by no means EVER BE ING TOUCHED) and updating it in the new trendy style. For example: Masif Dj’s – Children (Steve Hill Vs D10 Mix) (which is really Robert Miles - Children: the Hardstyle edition)
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Well that's the thing. McProg is NOT really prog. It just thinks it is. All of those tracks in their original form are also part of the McProg trend, not just remixes of epic trance (even if that's what it really is after all). The thing is that it is a trend for these guys to do different versions of their tracks and even the original will be called (Gabriel and Dresden remix), even if Motorcycle=Gabriel and Dresden.
Dave Dresden sums it up with his definition of prog as groundbreaking music. He acknowledges that prog can be monotonous and repetitive, and he claims to have the cure for those symptoms....applying structural epic trance/pop aesthetics (assembly line, quantity over quality melodramatic cookie cutter formula), but trying to maintain the "groundbreaking" edginess of progressive house (and failing miserably, other than in taking the energy out of epic trance.
| quote: | | Prog has never stooped to such a level as to mandate that all tracks follow a cookie-cutter template. You don't have all prog tunes, across the board, all sounding the same down to the drum tracks, with nothing but minor key values changed. And they aren't churned out at a feverish pace to feed the demand, since there's never been much of a high demand in the first place, so the urgency was never there to strike while the iron is hot and release pulp prog for mass consumption. Unless there's something that occurred in the prog movement that I'm not aware of. |
Yes, prog has never done such things, but McProg has. McProg is not progressive at all, but that's what it intends to be. You can tell from the style and musical approach of these tracks that they are trying to be different and anti-establishment while "still being fun (as Dresden puts it)" , but failing miserably because it still is stale old epic trance, but worst because it is pretentious in a trendy way. This is like the emo scene of trance, it's just commercial pop after all, despite it pretending to be otherwise. Another analogy would be something like Blink 182 calling itself punk, and we would despectively re-word it McPunk for exploiting the aesthetics of the genre and prioritizing quantity over quality.
| quote: | | Give me examples of McProg which aren't remixes, and which literally controlled the entire progressive landscape for a few years. I'm still fence-sitting on this, but if I can find more worthy examples, labels, artists n such....man, this is going in v3. |
Check out anything on the Electronic Elements label, which is actually a sub-label of Armin van Buuren's Armada, and is run by Markus Schulz and Perry O'Neil (two of the principal McProg DJ/producers). They define it as "the more progressive side of Armada", or as a user in Discogs put it: "Electronic Elements is a trancey progressive and melodic label that stands for high quality in relaxing trance tunes. Its a very special style of music and its almost composed like classical tunes from the past". Is this pretentious or what? Listen to a bunch of tracks by the likes of Andy Moor, Prosbot, Gabriel and Dresden, Markus Schulz, Perry O'Neil, Matthew Dekay, Roland Klinkenberg, Ozgur Can....sure, it's epic trance alright, it's melodic, formulaic and cookie cutter. But you can tell that their trying to be proggish, trying to be edgy and "different". Trance in general has moved to this direction which pretends to be groundbreaking. This is why these tracks have received lots of exposure in programs such as ASOT...but its main vehicle is still Markus Schulz's Global DJ Broadcast. Anjuna Beats has a bunch of McProg too...
Satellite and Clear Blue are for me the quintessential tracks that define McProg, Satellite being the typical vocal track and Clear Blue being the typical instrumental track.
But really , just check out the labels and artists I'm suggesting and you'll understand what we're talking about.
I guess you're also including reggaeton in V3. If you need any help with that let me know, I've been following the history and the evolution of the genre since the late 1980s. |
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by RebeL9
on Nyana CD1
i remember the transition between Tiësto vs. Junkie XL - Obsession (Frank Biazzi Remix) into -> Planisphere - Totem is really crap. there are loads of other ty transitions on this CD but this one was something even a newbie could do better. |
But that's not a trainwreck, it's just Tiesto trying to get away with one of his "shift of gears, sudden contrast" transitions. Sometimes they work marvelously, other times they just sound ty. He does them because the ones that work get a great reaction from the dancefloor. |
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| RebeL9 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
But that's not a trainwreck, it's just Tiesto trying to get away with one of his "shift of gears, sudden contrast" transitions. Sometimes they work marvelously, other times they just sound ty. He does them because the ones that work get a great reaction from the dancefloor. |
yeah but this time it was on a CD not in a liveset. and that is pretty damn poor if you ask me. didn't he listen to his own transitions? |
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| Pio |
| quote: | Originally posted by RebeL9
yeah but this time it was on a CD not in a liveset. and that is pretty damn poor if you ask me. didn't he listen to his own transitions? |
Since there is no real problem beatmatching-wise he probably didn't think there was any problem with it. Tiesto likes those sort of harmonic and rhythmic clashes such as the transition you're describing. I like them too, they make the mix more interesting, but I recognize that this one wasn't as nice as other such transitions that he has done in the past.
To tell you the truth I'd rather listen to this kind of transition than an average smooth flowing Armin van Buuren or Ferry Corsten mix. Tiesto manages to make the whole epic trance experience a bit more interesting whenever he cares enough about his set. I remember when he ended a set by mixing Umek-Gatex with Suburban Train and everyone accused him of blasphemy. The transition does sound a bit ugly but I still think it was brilliant, it had a huge rollercoaster effect on the dancefloor by changing the whole mood of the set so suddenly. |
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| RebeL9 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pio
Since there is no real problem beatmatching-wise he probably didn't think there was any problem with it. Tiesto likes those sort of harmonic and rhythmic clashes such as the transition you're describing. I like them too, they make the mix more interesting, but I recognize that this one wasn't as nice as other such transitions that he has done in the past.
To tell you the truth I'd rather listen to this kind of transition than an average smooth flowing Armin van Buuren or Ferry Corsten mix. Tiesto manages to make the whole epic trance experience a bit more interesting whenever he cares enough about his set. I remember when he ended a set by mixing Umek-Gatex with Suburban Train and everyone accused him of blasphemy. The transition does sound a bit ugly but I still think it was brilliant, it had a huge rollercoaster effect on the dancefloor by changing the whole mood of the set so suddenly. |
excuse me but I wouldn't call that a "harmonic" and "interesting" transition. if an unknown DJ would have done such a transition people would have laughed at him and shouted "noob!".
Since you compared Tiesto with Ferry and Armin I can honestly say that I am not much into the style of none of them but one can clearly hear that both Ferry and Armin are far superiour when it comes to good mixing and keeping the flow in the mix. Tiesto on the other hand often just throws one tune on the other no matter if its house on trance or trance on techno without checking the flowtation |
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