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Escalating situation in (country of) Georgia (pg. 12)
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by guerra-monstru
^Why do you refer to Chechens as a whole different people instead of as Russians? Do you believe Chechens are not russians? If so, than why not let them have there own indepence, etc? |
Sort of like Mexico and native americans I suppose? |
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| Capitalizt |
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ts-jugular.html
pics:
A bloodied woman lies injured in the ruins of an apartment block in Gori after another Russian air strike
Under attack: Georgian soldiers in the town of Gori sprint past a block of flats destroyed by a Russian bomber
Anguish: A man cradles the body of a relative in the street after Russian planes bomb homes in Gori, killing five people
Fleeing: A boy and a woman stare in terror at the carnage from a vehicle as they are evacuated from South Ossetia
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| Dervish |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Heck, Quebec, Basques, Scotland, Native Americans, etc. all want independence, but I dont see according government bodies granting them their wish. |
I wouldn't discount it. :p ;)
The last prime minister of the uk was a scot (Tony Blair) the current is a scot the last chancellor was a scot the current is a scot. In fact most of the cabinet important positions are taken up by scots.
The current leader of the opposition is from a scottish family and out of the last 5 leaders 3 have been scots (well cameron is english but as I said scottish family). The second party of the opposition aside from the current leader the last two before him were scottish too.
It's just a question of wanting it. But really it's is getting more and more likely by the day. |
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| Dervish |
Just watched a BBC film crews civilian land cruisers get directly attacked by a Russian plane.
If they aren't careful and don't agree to the ceasefire they will making the whole "who are the bad guys" process easier.... |
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| Q5echo |
Silver medalist Natalia Paderina of Russia (L) and bronze medalist Nino Salukvadeze of Georgia pose on the podium of the women's 10m air pistol.
seems kind of ironic they placed in the airgun competition. see, the Olympics aren't all pomp and circumstance. |
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| HardTranceProd |
Check this out. Saakashvili has just expressed his willingness to directly call the Russian officials and "apologize."
"It's too late to apologize," however, as the song goes. To his pleas the Russians have turned a deaf ear:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/w...&hp&oref=slogin
| quote: |
A senior American official said that the United States had conveyed the details of a cease-fire proposal by President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia to Russia’s acting ambassador in Washington late Saturday night, and that there briefly were indications that the Kremlin wanted to talk directly with the Georgian president.
“At midnight last night we got from the Russians that they would welcome a call from Saakashvili,” the official said.
But the day passed, and through Sunday night in Georgia, the Kremlin had not taken Mr. Saakashvili’s call and negotiations had not proceeded, an advisor to Georgia’s president said.
“He has asked to talk with Putin, and he has asked to talk to Medvedev,” he said, of Saakashvili. “But they have refused.”
The American official also said that Georgia had managed on Sunday to provide its cease-fire proposals to Sergei Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, but there was no reply.
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Oh, BTW: Saakashvili, who has just turned 40, has always been a weird and immature figure, warned by the West several times not to act rashly. This time, though, he "stepped over the precipice":
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Saakashvili is a famously volatile risk-taker, veering between warmonger and peacemaker, democrat and autocrat. On several occasions international officials have pulled him back from the brink. On a visit to Washington in 2004, he received a tongue-lashing from then Secretary of State Colin Powell who told him to act with restraint. Two months ago, he could have triggered a war with his other breakaway province of Abkhazia by calling for the expulsion of Russian peacekeepers from there, but European diplomats persuaded him to step back. This time he has yielded to provocation and stepped over the precipice.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/10/georgia.russia |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
[IMG]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/10/article-1043185-023971B100000578-18_468x286_popup.jpg[IMG] |
There's a big mistake on there: Abkhazia didnt invade Georgian territory outside of its own provincial boundary, they've only been bombing/attacking Georgian positions in Kodori Gorge, as a result of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Kodori_crisis
^^^ In 2006 Georgian military seized that part of Abkhazia under a pretext of a local "disobedient" official. You can say that this was part of series of Georgian takeovers of rebellious Ossetian and Abkhazian territories. After a while, Georgia got so bold they thought that by attacking the remaining South Ossetia directly, Russia would continue to stay out and stay quiet. But we all know what happened ...
Indeed, its sad and unfortunate that Russia had to go after Georgian targets outside of the South Ossetian conflict zone. Clearly, Russian pilots inexperience resulted in bombs being dropped on civilian apartments instead of nearby Georgian military bases in Gori, from where the Georgian military action started.
Alleged attack on Poti is also very questionable. Such attacks are probably going to have a negative effect on Russia, so I hope they stop these ridiculous and pointless raids. Concentrate instead on the front lines. And perhaps pursue diplomacy.
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Now that I think of it, the main reason why Russia allowed Abkhazians and Ossetians to obtain Russian passports is because of this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamsakhurdia
He was the man known for the famous slogan: "Georgia for the Georgians" in early 1990s, becoming the first Georgian president. He alarmed Russia with his nationalistic and anti-Russian policies, and as a result sent his country into turmoil, since there were still some Russians in the country and other folks who were quite sympathetic to the communist times, and "Georgia for the Georgians" campaign resulted in the whole South Ossetian and Abkhazian situation erupting into the conflict in the first place. Then, later, Russians were more than happy to sway their influence onto the provinces. Heck, who wouldn't do it in Russia's position? |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
The most interesting thing in that article is that the Russians are moving in with ground forces out of Ossetian territory and are starting to assault Gori with tank and artillery fire. Seems like they're going for the invasion after all. The convoys they are sending in are huge.
Really beautiful countryside, btw...I think I'll have to visit that one day. At least this war has made western tourists aware of Georgian natural wonders :) |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by HardTranceProd
Check this out. Saakashvili has just expressed his willingness to directly call the Russian officials and "apologize."
"It's too late to apologize," however, as the song goes. To his pleas the Russians have turned a deaf ear:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/w...&hp&oref=slogin
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Heck, much of American press has been on the "Russia attacks Georgia" punchline from the beginning, so I read that New York Times article with a huge degree of scepticism. Lets wait and see until the smoke clears to see how far the Russians have gone. I doubt they are heading to Gori, thats not only dangerous militarily (casualties) but politically suicidal. :nervous: Russian ground forces must restrain themselves for now, and not advance past South Ossetian conflict zone, no matter if Gori was the main Georgian military starting point for South Ossetia.
Seems like Russian military might be as reckless as Saakashvilli's blunders, but we'll see
| quote: | Originally posted by Dervish
Just watched a BBC film crews civilian land cruisers get directly attacked by a Russian plane.
If they aren't careful and don't agree to the ceasefire they will making the whole "who are the bad guys" process easier.... |
Several Russian reporters have been wounded as well. Russian television showed Vesti channel reporters in the conflict zone, wounded in the arm and other in the leg, being treated in the field makeshift hospital near Tskhinvali. They say they were attacked while driving on the main road towards South Ossetian capital.
Indeed, if Russians dont agree to a ceasefire, this could become a different political tune on the world stage ...
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| Magnetonium |
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080810...rgia_ossetia_dc
| quote: |
Georgia offers ceasefire as fighting continues
12 minutes ago
TSKHINVALI, Georgia (Reuters) - Georgia offered Russia a ceasefire and peace talks on Sunday after pulling troops back from rebel South Ossetia's capital, and mediators began a mission to end the internationally condemned fighting.
Some fighting still gripped parts of the Caucasus region, however, and Russia demanded an unconditional Georgian withdrawal.
French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner arrived in Tbilisi at the head of an international team of mediators, the first top level diplomatic mission to fly to the region in an attempt to stem the bloodshed. It was due to move on to Moscow on Monday.
After meeting Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, Kouchner said a "controlled withdrawal of the troops" was his main priority.
"Coming back to the table, negotiations, peace talks, a political solution. That's it. Easy to say, very difficult to do," Kouchner told journalists in Tbilisi.
The United States maintained its strong criticism of Russia, condemning its "disproportionate and dangerous" military action.
Russian troops and tanks took control of Tskhinvali, the region's devastated capital, early on Sunday after a three-day battle. Moscow said 2,000 civilians were killed and thousands made homeless in a "humanitarian catastrophe."
There has been no independent confirmation of the number of dead and wounded throughout the region.
The simmering conflict between Russia and its small, former Soviet neighbor Georgia erupted late on Thursday when Georgia sent forces into South Ossetia, a small pro-Russian province which threw off Georgian rule in the 1990s.
Russia, which had provided support to the separatists and had peacekeepers stationed in the province, responded by pouring troops and heavy amour south through the Caucasus mountains into South Ossetia to drive back the Georgians.
The conflict alarmed the West, which views Georgia as a valuable, if volatile, ally because of its strategic location on an energy transit route carrying oil from the Caspian to Europe.
Saakashvili appeared smiling but disheveled to meet Kouchner, before showing him the night-time view of Tbilisi from a hillside.
"It is the most surreal world crisis I could ever imagine," the Georgian leader told reporters.
FRENCH PRESIDENT TO VISIT MOSCOW
The office of French President Nicolas Sarkozy, current holder of the European Union's rotating presidency, said he would also visit Moscow in the next few days.
The French leader has produced a peace plan focusing on both sides pulling back to areas they held before the hostilities.
At the U.N., Moscow and Washington traded barbs in the Security Council.
U.S. ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad suggested Russia was seeking "regime change" by saying Saakashvili should leave office while Russian envoy Vitaly Churkin obliquely suggested some leaders became "obstacles" to their people.
The United States said any further Russian escalation of the conflict could have a "significant, long-term impact" on relations and called on Russia and Georgia to cease hostilities and return to their pre-conflict positions.
President Dmitry Medvedev said Georgia must withdraw from South Ossetia and formally pledge not to attack the region.
Meanwhile, fighting continued. A Reuters reporter in the town of Gori, just south of South Ossetia, reported heavy bombardment of areas around Tskhinvali on Sunday evening, although it was not clear who was firing.
Russian planes again bombed the Tbilisi military airport and a nearby aviation plant. One bomb exploded near the runway of the civilian international airport, although Moscow denied targeting that facility.
A Reuters photographer entering Tskhinvali with Russian troops on Sunday saw dead Georgian soldiers lying in the streets and the ruins of buildings devastated in the fighting.
Georgia and Russia have accused each other of causing widespread civilian casualties since the fighting began.
State-controlled Russian television repeatedly spoke of a "humanitarian catastrophe" in South Ossetia after the Georgian attack, with more than 2,000 dead and thousands homeless.
A Georgian government source said on Sunday 130 Georgian civilians and military personnel had been killed and 1,165 wounded, many because of Russian bombing inside Georgia. Russia denied hitting civilian targets.
DEVASTATION
Russian television showed what it said were pictures from Tskhinvali of burnt-out buildings, wounded civilians receiving medical treatment in dilapidated basements and weeping mothers complaining of a lack of food and water.
"It started with severe bombing with artillery and planes and helicopters. Our boys, with their guns, could do nothing," resident Alla Dzhiloyeva told RTR state television by phone.
"They bombed us so may times all the houses are destroyed... On one street there is only one wall left."
Pictures on NTV television showed Tskhinvali's main hospital in ruins and most of its 200 patients crammed into the basement. Patients, many wincing, underwent treatment on tabletops in what looked like unsanitary conditions.
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin cut short his visit to the Olympics on Saturday and flew to a field hospital in North Ossetia, visiting wounded troops and evacuees, and denouncing what he termed Georgia's "crimes against its own people."
Putin later briefed a Moscow-bound Medvedev on his trip, in a televised exchange which underlined Putin's continued dominance of Russian politics and government.
Potentially widening the conflict, Sergei Bagapsh, the leader of Abkhazia, another separatist region on Georgia's Black Sea coast, said he had ordered 1,000 troops to push Georgian forces out of the Kodori Gorge, a strategic pocket of territory. He called up reservists.
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| LatinLover |
Vladimir Putin is a thug! He should be tried for crimes against humanity! Killing innocent people has no justification what so ever towards his ego!
Waging a full scale war just to send a message is unnaceptable! |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by LatinLover
Vladimir Putin is a thug! He should be tried for crimes against humanity! Killing innocent people has no justification what so ever towards his ego!
Waging a full scale war just to send a message is unnaceptable! |
youre such a ing hypocrite. |
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