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Escalating situation in (country of) Georgia (pg. 44)
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| St_Andrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Yeah, the timing was political, but what did Ukraine expect? That they'll join NATO and still get Russian gas for a fraction of the price? And the way they handled it was really not the way to go. They cut supplies to the rest of Europe and kept the gas for themselves. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Russia has been a very nice country and supplying Ukraine and other "friends" with 80+% discounted energy for over a DECADE. Just IMAGINE how much money that is, free in the pockets of Ukrainian politicians - thats BILLIONS of dollars to keep their regimes running. And what it got in the end - a punch in the face. Russia decided that its time Ukraine started to pay what the rest of Europe pays. The contract expired at the end of the year, and Ukraine had a wake up call. Since Ukraine decided to play on its own terms with Russia, and Russia decided to do likewise with Ukraine. Why subsidize those who hate you and dont trust you?
Russia has paid for the "friendship" of these states with the loss of much revenue for itself. And there was absolutely no point in continuing that . And since then Ukraine continued to fail to live up to its payments ... which resulted in delays on several ocassions. So in a way that does look like Russia pressuring Ukraine. But obviously Ukraine wasnt gonna bulge, and Russia never intended to cut energy permanently from Ukraine - think about it yourself. They just gave up the freebie . |
I won't argue you here, since I agree with you. BUT, my point wasn't to prove Russia the bad one, it was simply to point out that Russia has indeed been pressuring Ukraine in the past (and present). And with issues such as Crimea/Sevastopol, with a much greater political and strategic importance than South Ossetia/Abchazia will ever be, I see a lot to worry about. |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
That was one hell of a interview!!!!:eyes: |
+1 very informative |
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| aNYthing |
Magnetonium, it is really entertaining to see you spin Putin's "street speek" into something more than a thuggish babble. He kind of reminds me of Kruschev - "Pokazhu im kuz'kinu mat'!", smacking his shoe on the desk. I laugh every time you back up this KB thug and try to wrap him into some shiny foil, so that some may overlook all the classic signs of a turd - smell, look, form.
I find it even more facinating that now that facade has crumbled and Russia's exposed for what it really is - you still stick by your guns. You'd be rather well received among the conservative elite in this country - they are just as dense and boneheaded as you are. Come to think of it, you might even have a political career here. Hell, you could probably replace Rush, Rove, or heck even Beck with your delusional convictions as unbendable as the spine that's firmly holding your head deeply up your own a$$.
Interesting observation by one of the few voices of reason left in that hellhole (sorry, russian only):
http://ej.ru/?a=note&id=8417
Not that I am that naive to hold any hope that you'd at least try to wiggle that head of yours at least a millimeter out of your anu$ to take a peek at it, but... well, here's hoping. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by aNYthing
Magnetonium, it is really entertaining to see you spin Putin's "street speek" into something more than a thuggish babble. He kind of reminds me of Kruschev - "Pokazhu im kuz'kinu mat'!", smacking his shoe on the desk. I laugh every time you back up this KB thug and try to wrap him into some shiny foil, so that some may overlook all the classic signs of a turd - smell, look, form.
I find it even more facinating that now that facade has crumbled and Russia's exposed for what it really is - you still stick by your guns. You'd be rather well received among the conservative elite in this country - they are just as dense and boneheaded as you are. Come to think of it, you might even have a political career here. Hell, you could probably replace Rush, Rove, or heck even Beck with your delusional convictions as unbendable as the spine that's firmly holding your head deeply up your own a$$.
Interesting observation by one of the few voices of reason left in that hellhole (sorry, russian only):
http://ej.ru/?a=note&id=8417
Not that I am that naive to hold any hope that you'd at least try to wiggle that head of yours at least a millimeter out of your anu$ to take a peek at it, but... well, here's hoping. |
I am not denying that there are problems in Russia - there are some big ones, and they are demographic and social problems, not KGB or authoritarian ones or whatever you may think of. You keep blaming Putin for everything, but you dont understand how Russia works. Most of the issues arent his fault in the first place, in case you didnt realize that by now. Plus, he cant fix things overnight, especially when there are other players involved - otherwise he can get a bullet easily. Bureaucracy and corruption is easily overshadowing any of the progres he makes.
I am tired of talking about Russia, especially when you keep asking the same dam questions. You dont know me, and dont understand the situation. You think Russian people want to look at everything NEGATIVELY? Seriously, get a brain.
Western media coverage of the war was biased to say the least. |
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| Magnetonium |
When the hits the fan ... What do you expect when some country willingly and knowingly gives weapons that kill your citizens, troops and foreign civilians. The political ramifications of this conflict are now being felt in Ukraine. Huge scandal. Yushchenko is gonna get nailed here.
http://strategicanalysis.wordpress....dal-in-ukraine/
| quote: |
Arms scandal in Ukraine
A scandal on government-inspired illegal arm suppliesto Georgia gathers strength in Ukraine. The Supreme Rada’s investigative commission, headed by Valery Konovalov, has already revealed facts onsupplying arms worth a whopping 200 million dollars tothe Saakashvili regime – money that had never reached Ukraine’s state coffers. Elaborating on that is our observer Alexander Vatutin: The Ukrainian authorities appeared to have done their best to render full-fledged aid to their staunch Caucasian ally – a fact that came to light following the end of the hostilities in the Georgia-SouthOssetia conflict zone. In the course of a military operation against Georgian commandos, the Russian military collected imposing war trophies, including Ukrainian-made T-72 combat tanks,small-arms weapon and ammunition, which were used against Tskhinvali’s civilians. This is, however, only the tip of the iceberg. Previously, there were reports about a Russian TU-22 strategic bomber being shot down by Georgian air defense systems. But it is clear that the bomber could hardly be demolished by mothballed air defenses the Georgia nmilitary was earlier equipped with. To all appearances, the Russian high-altitude bomber was eliminated by the most advanced S-200 air defense systems, which might well be supplied to the Saakasvili regime by none other than Ukraine. So it is safe to assume that the Yushchenko administration added significantly to building up Georgia’s offensive military muscles – a corruption-leaning move that patently rode rough shodover Ukraine’s existing legislation. By the way, a similar sandal recently hit Bosnia-Herzegovina, where opposition leaders hadpointed a finger at PM Nicola Spiric, who they claimed might well damage ties with the republic’s close ally Russia by moving to supply arms to Georgia. The Russian side has given solid evidence that during the South Ossetian conflict, the Georgian military used the state-of-the-art military hardware made not only in Ukraine but in many other nations from around the globe as well. The Military Prosecutor-General, Sergei Fridinsky, says that Russian peacekeepers seized plenty of military hardware and small-arms weapons produced by the United States, the Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Romania and Israel, whose drones, by the way, were widely used by the Georgian air forces. In a recent interview with the Voice of Russia, a Moscow-based noted military expert lamented the fact that so far there had been no international law which could bar a nation from supplying arms to the conflict areas. Alexander Pikayev added that in this sense, each country is keen to stick to its own policy principles. Regrettably, an international document to prevent a nation from supplying arms to the conflict zones has not seen the daylight yet, Alexander Pikayev complains. At the same time, he adds, there are currently several EU accords that say a firm no to EU member states’ involvement in the matter. That means that by supplying arms to Georgia, EU members violated their own agreements, Alexander Pikayev contends. It remains to be added that the current scandal seems to be the first link in the chain of exposures that will certainly shed enough light on who moved to sponsor Georgia’s aggression against South Ossetia.
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And obvious Putin response ....
http://malaysia.news.yahoo.com/afp/...as-6b0205e.html
| quote: |
Putin slams Ukraine over Georgia arms sales amid gas talks
AFP - Friday, October 3MOSCOW (AFP) - - Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin lashed out at Ukraine on Thursday for delivering weapons to Georgia, overshadowing talks with his Ukrainian counterpart over a sensitive gas deal.
"It is very regrettable that Ukraine thought it possible to deliver arms into the conflict zone," Putin said during a press conference with Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko.
"States normally behave with greater restraint," he added in an admonition to Ukraine, which relies heavily on Russian gas but which angered Moscow by backing Georgia in its brief war with Russia in August.
Tymoshenko replied "we want a peaceful solution" to the conflict and said it would be possible to reach a deal whereby Ukraine would pay market prices for gas -- meaning a major increase on what it pays now.
"We have the possibility of making a strategic agreement on market prices for gas, on the transition to market prices," she said.
Tymoshenko said on Friday that she expected Ukraine to sign a deal with Russia by the end of October on the delivery of gas from 2009 for a period of up to four years.
Soaring prices could complicate talks, however, after Russian gas monopoly Gazprom on Wednesday announced prices for European clients had hit an all-time high of 500 dollars per 1,000 cubic metres.
Ukraine currently pays 179.5 dollars per 1,000 cubic metres and Russia has long been pushing Kiev to pay more, resulting in a series of price disputes intertwined with the two countries' rocky ties.
In 2006 one such dispute led Moscow cut off gas deliveries to Ukraine and, by extension, to Western Europe, which gets much of its gas from Russia and Central Asia via pipelines running through Ukraine.
The latest downturn in relations between Moscow and Kiev resulted from the August war in which Ukraine strongly supported Georgia.
Ukraine was a major exporter of arms to Georgia in the run-up to the war, which began when Russia poured troops and armour into its southern neighbour to repel a Georgian attack on the Moscow-backed rebel region of South Ossetia.
Earlier Thursday, the pro-Kremlin daily Izvestia accused Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko -- Tymoshenko's arch-rival -- of selling Georgia air-defence systems and rocket launchers used in the attack on South Ossetia.
On Wednesday, Tymoshenko denounced arms trafficking in Ukraine and blamed Yushchenko and his allies for not stopping it, Interfax news agency reported.
Tymoshenko and Yushchenko have been feuding bitterly in a political crisis that began when the president pulled his party out of their ruling pro-West coalition after a dispute over how to respond to the war in Georgia.
Yushchenko's office accused the prime minister of "treason" for not being tough enough on Russia.
The squabbling threatened Thursday's meeting with Putin when Yushchenko's plane made an emergency landing near Kiev, and Tymoshenko's team accused him of seizing her plane as she was about to leave for Moscow.
"The government delegation was deprived of its plane in a bid to thwart the negotiations" with Putin, a Tymoshenko spokesman was quoted as saying by Interfax. The prime minister arrived in Moscow aboard a chartered plane.
The two politicians have had a love-hate relationship since 2004, when they joined forces in the so-called Orange Revolution to overturn the rigged election of a pro-Russian candidate as president.
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| Magnetonium |
Georgian government thinks that Russian peacekeepers still ride horse-drawn carriages. Of course the peacekeeper forces ride in armoured vehicles! Peacekeeping units rotate, too. Over 100 Russian soldiers have died since 1992 in the region while carrying out their duties, many of them died from shootings, or bombs (not including this recent conflict), thus they ride in armoured vehicles.
So whats the big fuss about this? Georgia trying to wiggle away from responsibility from starting the war? Its not the Russians who kickstarted a massive bombardment and military onslaught on South Ossetia .... How clear is that? These stories are just dumb (the article below). Too many conspiracy theories out there nowadays on Russia. Little shread of evidence or logic.
If Russians were indeed invading, they didn't need to spend 20 minutes talking nonsense to that border guard about armoured units crossing the tunnel on an UNSECURED phone network.
Maybe I am wrong, but this rubbish shouldn't even be published in the newspapers - but its merely efforts in the Western media to portray a certain viewpoint of the conflict.
And also, Georgia claims that they knew of this long in advance, they recorded it, and they realized that Russians were streaming in South Ossetia, and thus decided to bombard South Ossetia before Russian troops "invade" it ... YET they decided to go quiet about these revelations until 2 months after the conflict started?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/w...a=y&oref=slogin
| quote: |
Georgia Offers Fresh Evidence on War’s Start
TBILISI, Georgia — A new front has opened between Georgia and Russia, now over which side was the aggressor whose military activities early last month ignited the lopsided five-day war. At issue is new intelligence, inconclusive on its own, that nonetheless paints a more complicated picture of the critical last hours before war broke out.
Georgia has released intercepted telephone calls purporting to show that part of a Russian armored regiment crossed into the separatist enclave of South Ossetia nearly a full day before Georgia’s attack on the capital, Tskhinvali, late on Aug. 7.
Georgia is trying to counter accusations that the long-simmering standoff over South Ossetia, which borders Russia, tilted to war only after it attacked Tskhinvali. Georgia regards the enclave as its sovereign territory.
The intercepts circulated last week among intelligence agencies in the United States and Europe, part of a Georgian government effort to persuade the West and opposition voices at home that Georgia was under invasion and attacked defensively. Georgia argues that as a tiny and vulnerable nation allied with the West, it deserves extensive military and political support.
Georgia also provided audio files of the intercepts along with English translations to The New York Times, which made its own independent translation from the original Ossetian into Russian and then into English.
Russia, already facing deep criticism and the coolest audience in European capitals since the cold war, is arguing vigorously against Georgia’s claims. Last week, Prime Minister Vladimir V. Putin expressed bafflement at what he saw as the West’s propensity to believe Georgia’s version of events.
In an interview arranged by the Kremlin, the Russian military played down the significance of the intercepted conversations, saying troop movements to the enclave before the war erupted were part of the normal rotation and replenishment of longstanding peacekeeping forces there.
But at a minimum, the intercepted calls, which senior American officials have reviewed and described as credible if not conclusive, suggest there were Russian military movements earlier than had previously been acknowledged, whether routine or hostile, into Georgian territory as tensions accelerated toward war.
They also suggest the enduring limits — even with high-tech surveillance of critical battlefield locations — of penetrating the war’s thick fogs.
The back and forth over who started the war is already an issue in the American presidential race, with Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska, the Republican vice presidential candidate, contending that Russia’s incursion into Georgia was “unprovoked,” while others argue that Georgia’s shelling of Tskhinvali was provocation. Georgia claims that its main evidence — two of several calls secretly recorded by its intelligence service on Aug. 7 and 8 — shows that Russian tanks and fighting vehicles were already passing through the Roki Tunnel linking Russia to South Ossetia before dawn on Aug. 7.
By Russian accounts, the war began at 11:30 that night, when President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia ordered an attack on Russian positions in Tskhinvali. Russian combat units crossed the border into South Ossetia only later, Russia has said.
Russia has not disputed the veracity of the phone calls, which were apparently made by Ossetian border guards on a private Georgian cellphone network. “Listen, has the armor arrived or what?” a supervisor at the South Ossetian border guard headquarters asked a guard at the tunnel with the surname Gassiev, according to a call that Georgia and the cellphone provider said was intercepted at 3:52 a.m. on Aug. 7.
“The armor and people,” the guard replied. Asked if they had gone through, he said, “Yes, 20 minutes ago; when I called you, they had already arrived.”
Shota Utiashvili, the director of the intelligence analysis team at Georgia’s Interior Ministry, said the calls pointed to a Russian incursion. “This whole conflict has been overshadowed by the debate over who started this war,” he said. “These intercepted recordings show that Russia moved first and that we were defending ourselves.”
The recordings, however, do not explicitly describe the quantity of armor or indicate that Russian forces were engaged in fighting at that time.
Competing Accounts
Gen. Lt. Nikolai Uvarov of Russia, a former United Nations military attaché, who served as a Defense Ministry spokesman during the war, insisted that Georgia’s attack surprised Russia and that its leaders scrambled to respond while Russian peacekeeping forces were under fire. He said President Dmitri A. Medvedev had been on a cruise on the Volga River. Mr. Putin was at the Olympics in Beijing.
“The minister of defense, by the way, was on vacation in the Black Sea somewhere,” he said. “We never expected them to launch an attack.”
As for the claim that Russian forces entered the enclave early on Aug. 7, General Uvarov said military hardware regularly moved in and out of South Ossetia, supplying the Russian peacekeeping contingent there.
“Since we had here a battalion, they need fuel, they need products; naturally you have movement of troops,” he said. “But not combat troops specifically sent there to fight.” He added, “If it were a big reinforcement, then we wouldn’t have lost about 15 peacekeepers inside.”
Georgia disputed the Russian explanation, saying that under peacekeeping documents signed by both sides in 2004, rotations of the Russian peacekeeping battalion could be conducted only in daylight and after not less than a month of advance notification. There was no notification, Mr. Utiashvili said.
Why, he asked, was the duty officer at the Roki Tunnel apparently caught off guard, if this was, as the Russians said, a routine deployment of peacekeepers?
Georgian officials said they provided the materials last week to the United States and France, which holds the rotating presidency of the European Union, in addition to two reporters for The Times. The Times hired an independent Ossetian linguist in Russia to translate the recordings.
Vano Merabishvili, Georgia’s minister of interior, said he was told of the intercepts by Georgian intelligence within hours of their being recorded. The information, he said, was relayed to Mr. Saakashvili, who saw them as a sign of a Russian invasion.
Pressed as to why more than a month passed before the conversations came to light, Mr. Merabishvili said the file with the recordings was lost during the war when the surveillance team moved operations from Tbilisi, the capital, to the central city of Gori. Georgian intelligence officers later sifted through 6,000 files to retrieve copies, he said.
The Times provided a range of American government and military officials with copies of the independent translations for comment. They cautioned that while the conversations appeared to be from genuine cellphone intercepts, no complete or official assessment could be made without access to the entire file of cellphone audio gathered by the Georgians. They said the question of provocation and response in the conflict remained under scrutiny in Washington.
“We continue to look at that, both in terms of our intelligence assessment and then from what we get from on the ground,” said one senior American military officer who follows the situation in Georgia and agreed to discuss the matter on the condition of anonymity because it involved intelligence matters. “We have not been able to establish the ‘Who shot John?’ — the first shot.”
Talk of Armor in Tunnel
Georgia said its main evidence consisted of two conversations on Aug. 7 between Mr. Gassiev at the tunnel and his supervisor at the headquarters.
In the first conversation, logged at 3.41 a.m., Mr. Gassiev told the supervisor that a Russian colonel had asked Ossetian guards to inspect military vehicles that “crowded” the tunnel. Mr. Gassiev said: “The commander, a colonel, approached and said, ‘The guys with you should check the vehicles.’ Is that O.K.?”
Asked who the colonel was, Mr. Gassiev answered: “I don’t know. Their superior, the one in charge there. The B.M.P.’s and other vehicles were sent here and they’ve crowded there. The guys are also standing around. And he said that we should inspect the vehicles. I don’t know. And he went out.” A B.M.P. is a tracked armored vehicle that vaguely resembles a tank. It was one of the principal Russian military vehicles seen in the war, and in the peacekeeping contingent.
At 3:52 a.m., Mr. Gassiev informed the supervisor that armored vehicles had left the tunnel, commanded by a colonel he called Kazachenko. The colonel’s first name was not mentioned. According to unrelated Russian press reports after the war, Col. Andrei Kazachenko served in the 135th Motorized Rifle Regiment. The regiment provided peacekeepers in South Ossetia and fought in Tskhinvali during the war, General Uvarov said. The general said he had no information about Colonel Kazachenko.
Georgia’s claims about Russian movements appear to be at least partly supported by other information that emerged recently. Western intelligence determined independently that two battalions of the 135th Regiment moved through the tunnel to South Ossetia either on the night of Aug. 7 or the early morning of Aug. 8, according to a senior American official.
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| Andy Moor#1 Fan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Georgian government thinks that Russian "peacekeepers"... |
Fixed. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Andy Moor#1 Fan
Fixed. |
Well, there's peace in the region right now, isnt it? Peace-maker, peace-keeper! Before Russian troops entered in under international mandate in 1992-ish, there was bloodshed and conflict, and then it ended. But when some countries (*cough cough*) supply endless amount of money and military to re-arm one of the conflict sides, you outta know that even the brightest peacekeepers arent gonna be able to do their job well anymore! ;) Hence the recent conflict. Who supplied Georgia with weapons that started the war? (*cough cough*) Who attacked first, who launched a massive widescale annihilating military campaign on Tskhinvali?
Heck, NATO did the same with former Yugoslavia. But they are "peacekeepers", arent they? And in case you missed it, Russians didnt arm the Serbs, and arent doing it now. So I suggest you tell your NATO friends to stop arming people in conflict zones - which is why this conflict erupted. No gun - no war. |
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| wad borkrate |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Well, there's peace in the region right now, isnt it? Peace-maker, peace-keeper! Before Russian troops entered in under international mandate in 1992-ish, there was bloodshed and conflict, and then it ended. But when some countries (*cough cough*) supply endless amount of money and military to re-arm one of the conflict sides, you outta know that even the brightest peacekeepers arent gonna be able to do their job well anymore! ;) Hence the recent conflict. Who supplied Georgia with weapons that started the war? (*cough cough*) Who attacked first, who launched a massive widescale annihilating military campaign on Tskhinvali?
Heck, NATO did the same with former Yugoslavia. But they are "peacekeepers", arent they? And in case you missed it, Russians didnt arm the Serbs, and arent doing it now. So I suggest you tell your NATO friends to stop arming people in conflict zones - which is why this conflict erupted. No gun - no war. |
Lol what makes you think he has friends in NATO? Are there political figures posting here on Tranceaddict? |
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| Andy Moor#1 Fan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Who supplied Georgia with weapons that started the war? (*cough cough*) Who attacked first, who launched a massive widescale annihilating military campaign on Tskhinvali?
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Russia had been bullying Georgia for quite some time prior to this. What about the cutting off of gas supplies? Banning the export of Georgian wines to Russia? Closing all land borders between the two countries? The numerous violations of Georgian airspace by Russia?
Basically, Russia had been taunting Georgia for ages and Georgia took the bait. It wasn't very smart on Georgia's part and I have no idea why they even want South Ossetia back (Abkhazia is a different matter, but I won't go into that), but Russia's behavior was completely unacceptable. I have never heard any credible reasons as to why Russia ventured outside of the separatist regions and into Gori and the surrounding area, and WHY they've still got troops there. Russia has also performed scorched earth tactics during the occupation and severed Georgia's transport links.
I'm trying not to paint the situation as black and white, but to me it just looks like a Russian effort to show it's territorial power in the region to the international community. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Andy Moor#1 Fan
Russia had been bullying Georgia for quite some time prior to this. What about the cutting off of gas supplies? Banning the export of Georgian wines to Russia? Closing all land borders between the two countries? The numerous violations of Georgian airspace by Russia?
Basically, Russia had been taunting Georgia for ages and Georgia took the bait. It wasn't very smart on Georgia's part and I have no idea why they even want South Ossetia back (Abkhazia is a different matter, but I won't go into that), but Russia's behavior was completely unacceptable. I have never heard any credible reasons as to why Russia ventured outside of the separatist regions and into Gori and the surrounding area, and WHY they've still got troops there. Russia has also performed scorched earth tactics during the occupation and severed Georgia's transport links.
I'm trying not to paint the situation as black and white, but to me it just looks like a Russian effort to show it's territorial power in the region to the international community. |
Yeah, indeed, Russia has been pretty pushy on Georgia, and it looks very questionable when they argued over mineral water (Borjomi brand), gas, wines, and other things. But those things have now been sorted with, and over and solutions were found. These foolish steps were a response to Georgian provocations (Georgia seizing Russian diplomats and "spies", trying to join NATO). These and other tactics have not achieved either side much. Well, actually, no matter what Georgia did, it was going to please NATO as long as Tbilibi went against Moscow's will.
Russia's main reasoning for pressuring Georgia is not because of Soviet-style domination or plans, but because they fear NATO's expansion. Kremlin views NATO as the biggest threat to its security. And they rightfully and reasonably have that element of doubt.
With regards to the Russian response in this conflict, its a very delicate issue. Try to picture this - your country has peacekeepers in some region, and then a country attacks the region with full military force, WITHOUT WARNING, and results in deaths of your peacekeepers. What would America do? Now put the pieces together. Russia really had no choice - if it didnt respond, Medvedev/Putin would have had their arses whipped by the Russian public. Imagine the humiliation and anger if Russia sat there and did nothing. And for years Russia tried to stop the military buildup in Georgia, but to obvious reasons it couldn't. And so on.
Its a complicated situation, and Russia didnt attack Georgia for the reasons shown in the media. It became obvious when Russian troops met the deadline from the Sarkozy deal and moved all troops out of Georgia to within the buffer zone around the separatist regions and those stated regions.
Georgia committed a share of crimes in those regions over the past 85 years. But hardly anyone is talking about those. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by wad borkrate
Lol what makes you think he has friends in NATO? Are there political figures posting here on Tranceaddict? |
If pro-Georgian leader is in power, that country will become a member of NATO. This conflict didnt change much in the minds of NATO leaders, but only made Georgia's case stronger to join the military alliance. Russia fears totally encirclement by NATO, for many reasons - and NATO is a military pact.
Besides, why has NATO been expanding towards Russian borders, building military bases, anti-missile shields, supplying arms to restart old conflicts (South Ossetia) and so on? After what Georgia did in South Ossetia its pretty dam obvious Russia has a good case! NATO has gone against all their traditional logic. They pummeled Serbia into smithereens and broke it up as much as they could. And that wasnt called as misproportional use of force or attack on sovereign nation's internationally-backed borders. And so on.
Russia fully knows and understand that the same thing could happen to itself once its totally isolated by NATO. |
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