|
Escalating situation in (country of) Georgia (pg. 6)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Kapedano |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moongoose
Yet with everything thats been going on, the top story on cnn today is that apparently John edwards slept with a woman that wasnt his wife a few years ago. Seriously, how can that mere important? |
It's sad indeed. It's about the ratings rather than the cause. John Edwards affair will get more ratings than this war. |
|
|
| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kapedano
It's sad indeed. It's about the ratings rather than the cause. John Edwards affair will get more ratings than this war. |
It's really a great thing for the russians. Now that there's this Edwards affair going on, they are free to commit any sort of genocide they want and they can be sure it won't make it to the first page.
Btw, does anyone know anything about Adzharskaya autonomous region of Georgia? It's the southwestern one on the map, and I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.
Edit: It's the spelling, it's also called Adjara http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjara
Seems like Georgia is pretty divided on the inside. Supposedly there's also a large armenian minority around Akhalkalaki. Might make the job for russians easier.
Btw, last news is that the front line is at the town of Gori about 15km inside georgian territorry. That's some 75km from the capitol of Tblisi. |
|
|
| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
It's really a great thing for the russians. Now that there's this Edwards affair going on, they are free to commit any sort of genocide they want and they can be sure it won't make it to the first page. |
LOL!!! What are you talking about, seriously?? Russia committing genocide against their own citizens annd allied Ossetian people? Thats more ridiculous than the Georgian attack itself. Theres's only 75000 minus the current casualties of Ossetians in the whole republic! Current reports from the war zone indicate that Georgian shelling and attacks, as well as murderous genocidal campaign has resulted in over 2000 civilian deaths - that out of a total population of 75000. And thats NOT the first time Georgia has murdered a huge number of Ossetian people (first in 1920, then in early 1990s).
Civilian survivors are reporting that Georgian special forces are throwing grenades into basements in northern Tskhinvali areas they seized, via cell messages and via reporters. Couple Russian reporters have been shot by Georgian forces.
| quote: |
Btw, does anyone know anything about Adzharskaya autonomous region of Georgia? It's the southwestern one on the map, and I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.
Edit: It's the spelling, it's also called Adjara http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjara
|
I talked about Adjaria earlier, few posts ago, how Saakashvilli seized that rebellious province when he came to power in 2003-2004, in bloodless takeover. Georgian special forces infiltrated the region and disarmed the militia and forced the former president into exile. Its a mainly Muslim province, one time part of Ottoman Empire, then passed to Russian Empire, with beautiful city of Batum as its capital. During the Russian Empire days Batum was an important port on the Black Sea. It has some of the most beautiful rainforests and landscapes in the region. No oil pipelines, of course.
| quote: |
Seems like Georgia is pretty divided on the inside. Supposedly there's also a large armenian minority around Akhalkalaki. Might make the job for russians easier.
|
Russians used to have a military base there, one of the oldest Russian military bases in the whole Soviet bloc, dating back to 1800s. Ethnic Armenians were strongly opposed to the base closing, but after lengthy pressure, and with Russian interest in removing its so-called agression and occupation, it has closed down most of its bases in Georgia, with exception to one in Abkhazia.
| quote: |
Btw, last news is that the front line is at the town of Gori about 15km inside georgian territorry. That's some 75km from the capitol of Tblisi. |
I doubt Russia will go to Tbilisi. Thats gonna be a lot of casualties, and Russian military hasnt established a line of support and supplies and more troops/equipment yet. Its not in the Russian interest to take over Georgia, plus they dont need to. Why? Because they can just defeat Georgian forces around Ossetian region, and then Georgian people can overthrow the disgraced leader later on in the year (remember Milosevic?).
I repeat once again - Russia does not need Georgia. The geo-political thing is America's game. Georgia offers nothing to Russia, no oil or strategic resources. Armenia is Russsia's strategic ally in the region, not Georgia. Russia is only trying to establish a buffer zone to counter NATO expansion - which is a military pact that since the beginning was aimed at Russia, thats all there's to it, in addition to protecting its citizens and peacekeepers. Besides, Georgian attitude shows that they think Russians are weak and will not do anything. Well, this conflict can show the entire world that Russia is no longer a pushover. People need to treat Russia with respect and seriously, and deal with Russian government issues before just annihilating its citizens and peacekeepers like Georgia's coward and agressive attack did.
Georgia failed to consult Russia, and it didnt even warn that it was going to attack to allow Russian citizens and peacekeepers to move to safety. No, thats too easy. Georgia, by attacking the peacekeepers in their own blue zones, have directly initiated a war against Russia, trying to bluff, and it badly backfired. And so as a result, Georgia must now embrace the worst, rightfully so.
|
|
|
| Magnetonium |
It turns out, that in some countries, like in Canada and Italy, the media has been portraying the story that "Russia attacked Georgia". On many forums and on some media I can clearly see that message, which is obviously false. While it was Georgia who attacked Russian peacekeepers and citizens first, and Georgia who violently attacked first, violating the 1990s treaties, cease fire and whatever other agreements, as mediated by the international community. Dont get me wrong - South Ossetians didnt invade Georgian towns.
Just couple weeks ago, in July '08, Georgia wrapped up some military games to be fully prepared for the attack on South Ossetia. Funny now how it says that exercises were UNRELATED to the South Ossetian conflict:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25684774/
| quote: |
U.S.-Georgia training begins amid Russia strain
Officials: Exercises unrelated to friction between Moscow, ex-Soviet state
Georgian soldiers gather during the opening ceremony of "Immediate Response 2008" at the Vaziani military base, outside Tbilisi, Georgia, on Tuesday.
VAZIANI, Georgia - One thousand U.S. troops began a military training exercise in Georgia on Tuesday against a backdrop of growing friction between Georgia and neighboring Russia.
Officials said the exercise, called "Immediate Response 2008," had been planned for months and was not linked to a stand-off between Moscow and Tbilisi over two Russian-backed separatists regions of Georgia.
The United States is an ally of Georgia and has irritated Russia by backing Tbilisi's bid to join the NATO military alliance.
The main purpose of these exercises is to increase the cooperation and partnership between U.S. and Georgian forces," Brig. Gen. William B. Garrett, commander of the U.S. military's Southern European Task Force, told reporters.
The war games involve 600 Georgian troops and smaller numbers from ex-Soviet Armenia, Azerbaijan and Ukraine.
The two-week exercise was taking place at the Vaziani military base near the capital Tbilisi, which was a Russian air force base until Russian forces withdrew at the start of this decade under a European arms reduction agreement.
Close cooperation
Georgia and the Pentagon cooperate closely. Georgia has a 2,000-strong contingent supporting the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, and Washington provides training and equipment to the Georgian military.
Georgia last week recalled its ambassador in Moscow in protest at Russia sending fighter jets into Georgian airspace. Tbilisi urged the West to condemn Russia's actions.
Russia said the flights were to prevent Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili from launching a military operation against the separatist South Ossetia region.
Moscow accuses Saakashvili of preparing to restore Tbilisi's control over South Ossetia and the second breakaway region of Abkhazia by force. Tbilisi says that is a pretext for Russia to effectively annex large chunks of Georgian territory.
|
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080809...a_south_ossetia
| quote: |
GORI, Georgia - Russia sent hundreds of tanks and troops into the separatist province of South Ossetia and bombed Georgian towns Saturday in a major escalation of the conflict that has left scores of civilians dead and wounded.
Georgia, a staunch U.S. ally that borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, launched a major offensive Friday to retake control of breakaway South Ossetia. Russia, which has close ties to the province and posts peacekeepers there, responded by sending in armed convoys and military combat aircraft.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told reporters in Moscow that some 1,500 people have been killed, with the death toll rising Saturday.
The figure could not be independently confirmed, but witnesses who fled the fighting said hundreds of civilians had probably died. They said most of the provincial capital, Tskhinvali, was in ruins, with bodies lying everywhere.
The air and artillery bombardment left the provincial capital without water, food, electricity and gas. Horrified civilians crawled out of the basements into the streets as fighting eased, looking for supplies.
Russian Gen. Vladimir Boldyrev claimed in televised comments Saturday that Russian troops had driven Georgian forces out of the provincial capital. Witnesses confirmed that there was no sign of Georgian soldiers in the streets.
"Georgia is facing Russia's military aggression," Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said, noting that Russian forces were attacking areas outside South Ossetia. "Georgian authorities support a cease-fire and separation of the warring parties."
As part of Saakashvili's proposal, Georgian troops were pulled out of Tskhinvali and had been ordered to stop responding to Russian shelling, said Alexander Lomaia, secretary of his Security Council. Russia did not immediately respond to Saakashvili's proposal.
Russian military aircraft also bombed the Georgian town of Gori on Saturday. An Associated Press reporter who visited Gori shortly afterward saw several apartment buildings in ruins, some still on fire, and scores of dead bodies and bloodied civilians. The elderly, women and children were among the victims.
It is the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won de facto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992.
The fighting threatens to ignite a wider war between Russia and Georgia, which accused Russia of bombing its towns, ports and air bases. Georgia, a former Soviet republic with ambitions of joining NATO, has asked the international community to help end what it called Russian aggression.
It also likely will increase tensions between Moscow and Washington, which Lavrov said should bear part of the blame for arming and training Georgian soldiers.
Moscow has said it needs to protect its peacekeepers and civilians in South Ossetia, most of whom have been given Russian passports. Ethnic Ossetians live in the breakaway Georgian province and in the neighboring Russian province of North Ossetia.
Russia's ambassador to NATO said his country is not at war, saying "our actions are limited by time, region and purpose."
"We take the view that NATO is not involved in the conflict," Dmitry Rogozin, told reporters in Brussels, accusing Saakashvili of trying to "internationalize" the South Ossetian conflict.
Rogozin said that Georgia's president "cannot imagine what it would be like to be at war with Russia."
Meanwhile, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin traveled to a region that neighbors Georgia's breakaway province of South Ossetia, according to Russian news reports.
Putin is to chair a meeting in Vladikavkaz, the provincial capital of the region of North Ossetia that neighbors the separatist Georgian province, to coordinate assistance to refugees who fled South Ossetia into the neighboring Russian region.
Lomaia said there had been direct fighting between Russian and Georgian soldiers on the streets of Tskhinvali. He estimated that Russia sent 2,500 troops into Georgia. The Russian military has not said how many of its troops were deployed.
Overnight, Russian warplanes bombed the Vaziani military base on the outskirts of the Georgian capital and near the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline, Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said. He also said two other military bases were hit, and that warplanes bombed the Black Sea port city of Poti, which has a sizable oil shipment facility.
Georgia, meanwhile, said it had shot down 10 Russian planes, including four brought down Saturday, according to Kakha Lomaya, head of Georgia's Security Council.
Russian military commanders said 15 peacekeepers had been killed and about 150 wounded. Russian troops went in as peacekeepers but Georgia alleges they now back the separatists.
Russian military spokesman Col. Igor Konashenkov accused Georgian troops of killing and wounded Russian peacekeepers when they seized Russian checkpoints. Konashenkov's allegations couldn't be independently confirmed Saturday.
Russia's foreign minister said that Georgia brought the airstrikes upon itself by bombing civilians and Russian peacekeepers, and warned that the small Caucasus country should expect more attacks.
"Whatever side is used to bomb civilians and the positions of peacekeepers, this side is not safe and they should know this," Lavrov said.
Asked whether Russia could bomb the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, Lavrov answered: "I don't think the bombing is coming from Tbilisi, but whatever part of Georgia is used for this aggression is not safe."
It was unclear what might persuade either side to stop shooting. Both claim the battle started after the other side violated a cease-fire that had been declared just hours earlier after a week of sporadic clashes.
Diplomats have issued a flurry of statements calling on both sides to halt the fighting and called for another emergency session of the U.N. Security Council, its second since early Friday morning seeking to prevent an all-out war.
President Bush said Saturday the outbreak of fighting is endangering peace throughout the volatile region, and he urged an end to the deadly outbreak of violence.
"I'm deeply concerned about the situation in Georgia," Bush said in a statement to reporters while attending the Olympics in Beijing. "The attacks are occurring in regions of Georgia far from the zone of conflict in South Ossetia. They mark a dangerous escalation in the crisis.
"The violence is endangering regional peace, civilian lives have been lost and others are endangered. We have urged an immediate halt to the violence and a stand-down by all troops. We call for an end to the Russian bombings, and a return by the parties to the status quo of Aug. 6."
Russia, which has granted citizenship to most of the region's residents, appeared to lay much of the responsibility for ending the fighting on Washington.
Georgia was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the breakup of the Soviet Union. Georgia has angered Russia by seeking NATO membership — a bid Moscow regards as part of a Western effort to weaken its influence in the region.
Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili, a U.S.-educated lawyer, long has pledged to restore Tbilisi's rule over South Ossetia and another breakaway province, Abkhazia. Both regions have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and have built up ties with Moscow.
Georgia has about 2,000 troops in Iraq, making it the third-largest contributor to coalition forces after the U.S. and Britain. But Saakashvili has called them home in the face of the South Ossetia fighting. The Georgian commander of the brigade in Iraq said Saturday they would leave as soon as transport can be arranged.
|
|
|
|
| Kapedano |
| Well a smart thing that Edwards did was admit to this yesterday for two big reasons. First of all, its a Friday, the weekend will downplay it a lot, compared to a Monday. Also, a war is going on in Georgia. Good strategy. |
|
|
| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kapedano
Well a smart thing that Edwards did was admit to this yesterday for two big reasons. First of all, its a Friday, the weekend will downplay it a lot, compared to a Monday. Also, a war is going on in Georgia. Good strategy. |
Yeah, the Russkies have taken this coflict too far, in my opinion, when they allegedly bombed Gori and other Georgian positions, which are waaay outside of South Ossetia conflict zone. I strongly oppose such acts by the Russian military, thats just as bad as Georgian initial attack. Russian retaliation is pretty tough, it seems. Medvedev is much meaner than Putin!
:eyes: |
|
|
| Kapedano |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Medvedev is much meaner than Putin!
:eyes: |
Don't think so. Lets not kid ourselves who runs the show ;) |
|
|
| The17sss |
| I thought Georgia itself was rich with oil, which would make it a benefit for Russia to have. Keep the information coming dude... you're providing much better news than the actual "news" here in the U.S. |
|
|
| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kapedano
Don't think so. Lets not kid ourselves who runs the show ;) |
But ... but ... but ... but isn't Putin in Beijing? Oh WAIT!? BODY DOUBLE? :disbelief
Medvedev made his scary speech from Kremlin following discussion with his security cabinet. ;) |
|
|
| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
I thought Georgia itself was rich with oil, which would make it a benefit for Russia to have. Keep the information coming dude... you're providing much better news than the actual "news" here in the U.S. |
Well, there's that oil pipeline that goes from Baku (Azerbaijan) to Turkey (and then to NATO countries), and it passes through southern Georgia (not passing any of these South Ossetia-like regions). So, as you'd imagine, Georgia is a very KEY ally of America in the region. Besides, Russian "presence" in South Ossetia and Abkhazia is not so innocent (Russians more than happy to allow Ossetians to obtain Russian passports), and Georgia had reasonable excuse to consider joining NATO as a result ... but not by attacking the rebellious regions though, that was foolish (diplomacy and money would have done a much better job).
Otherwise Georgia has little if any resources, other than few precious metal deposits here and there, like manganese and mineral water. |
|
|
| The17sss |
| How are you so informed on all of this? Are you from that region or have you studied that region in depth? |
|
|
| Magnetonium |
^^^ I am following ALL Russian and Georgian media right now, in addition to scanning for recent updates and articles online. I've been tracking google news and yahoo news, as well as other forums that I view at times. I have not watched a single minute of the Olympics so far. Seriously.
Holly focking jack! There's some serious developments going on now: it is reported that from throughout Georgia, Georgian forces are streaming towards South Ossetia. Russian television reports (http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=199779&tid=60353) that Goergian eyewitnesses reported seeing trains passing by with NATO military equipment, tanks, APC's, much of the equipment is allegedly without numbers (I think they are meaning to say without license plate numbers or without serial's to trace to supplier).
Ukraine has pledged to provide support to Georgia in this conflict. :eyes: замминистра иностранных дел Украины Константин Елисеев. "Украина готова оказать Грузии всяческую гуманитарную и политическую помощь" = According to Ukrainian foreign minister Mr. Konstantin Eliseev, their country is ready to give Georgia humanitarian and POLITICAL help. He also says that Ukraine is looking at other options, such as possibly providing Georgia with military equipment, depending on how the situation goes.
Holly shmolly. South Ossetian website (http://cominf.org/) reports that separatists, backed by Russian tanks, have been able to push back a second Georgian attack to take Tskhinvali in the last 2 days.
|
|
|
|
|
