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Escalating situation in (country of) Georgia (pg. 35)
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| otec |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
LOL... yeah I picked her right out of a catalogue man. Number 298-34B. Her mom worked in the Duma for 35 years and she had about 4 years of govt. work, which pretty much guarantees that they, and consequently I, know more about the inside scoop than you're arrogant ass does. I'm sure you didn't expect that my comments came from being privy to some Russian stuff that you aren't, which is why you have to resort to personal attacks and weak assumptions. This reminds me of when Krypton tried to blast me as being some cog in the wheel who works a 9-5 office job, which I happily debunked (no hard feelings, Krypton... *fist bump*). There's no need for me to learn Russian when she speaks fluent english and translates russian media for me. You are also assuming I get my info from CNN/BBC/Fox... stupid assumption. I take the main stream media with a grain of salt. I can tell you already have your mind made up that it's impossible for what I'm saying to be true, and that I still don't know about what I'm saying. I read your comments and realize how uninformed you are without even getting into details. So unless you are willing to have an open mind about discussing the topic instead of just assuming and insulting my wife, then kindly go yourself and take your rhetoric elsewhere. K? |
well then read this
http://kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=1013457&NodesID=5 |
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| The17sss |
Ok just got the translation. It had a pretty paranoid feel to it, as if the US's diabolical hand is behind everything, with the ultimate goal of isolating Russia who is just minding their own business. Sounds like a pretty scary situation for the west though actually. Syria's president is all gums no teeth for the most part, but it could get ugly if Russia, Syria, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. all team up. I wonder if Israel would bomb Russian missle silos in Syria like they did to that nuclear reactor back in September. Putin has that KGB Colonel ice water running through his veins, and I know he knows the west is too chicken to call his bluff on anything right now. I knew something was up 6 months ago when he started sending those Bear H Bombers on sallies along the coast of Alaska. He probably laughs when Bush or any EU country demands this or that. Although it was interesting that Condi Rice said this today: “When you threaten Poland, you perhaps forget that it is not 1988. It’s 2008 and the United States has a firm treaty guarantee to defend Poland’s territory as if it was the territory of the United States. So it’s probably not wise to throw these threats around."
I see Russia froze all joint work with NATO now too. And or good measure, NATO’s secretary general sneered that the threats are “pathetic rhetoric.” How smart is it to mock a country that’s jonesing on military victory and already proven it’s willing to spit on a ceasefire it agreed to just days ago? The U.S. and EU seem awfully confident that Russia’s not going to escalate this any further, with Bush insisting this afternoon that Ossetia and Abkhazia are part of Georgia and that western powers will work together to ensure the country’s integrity. The only problem: Russia’s already called an emergency meeting of the Duma for Monday to decide whether to formally recognize the provinces as independent, even though they’ve agreed to a raft of UN resolutions over the past 10 years recognizing that the two are part of Georgia.
What’s the west’s plan if its bluff is called? I can only wonder how likely is it that the two provinces, occupied and encircled by Russian troops, will “vote” for independence instead of annexation by Moscow. How about this quote---> "The weak are not loved and not heard, they are insulted, and when we have nuclear parity they will talk to us in a different way." Sounds like 1960's cold war stuff huh? It's actually from Russia's First Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov last year. It's like that which just really makes it hard to believe Russia is an innocent bystander reacting accordingly... they baited Georgia with the "peace keepers" in S. Ossetia, and Georgia foolishly took it, thinking the U.S. would run to the rescue. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Thats just a joke. As I said before, Russia isnt just mass-printing passports and giving them out, because I surely as hell didnt get mine.
Tell me how you would have handled this conflict, if you were the President of Russia. I really really want to know. We'll take it from there.
;) Unless you're a fan of ethnic cleansing and political indifference |
You always have really good analysis and perspectives in your responses. But honestly dude, I don't know how I would handle the conflict. I could only truly answer that if I had the actual details about what was really going on in S. Ossetia between the Georgians and the Russians. Each side has their own version. It was definitely wrong for the foolish Gerogians to open fire. But do we really know that they weren't baited into it, and if so what are the circumstances of that? The Russian response was too much. Over 100,000 people are displaced now in Georgia. And their unwillingness to respect the cease fire and pull out pact they signed tells you something... not to mention the shooting at reporters, stealing Hum Vees the U.S. sent in for the purpose of aid transport, and robbing of banks (caught on film, not made up). I even read an article that Russian soldiers were making Georgians clean up the streets after the bombings to teach them a lesson in humility.
It's still on Georgia though for being dumb enough to take the bait, but it still points to the crafty plan by the Russians to bring the situation to a slow boil over time... coupled with handing out passports to most of their citizens, for obviously no other reason to be able to use that as an excuse to "protect our citizens." It's too complicated for me to answer man. We're all getting an in your face lesson about how the world really works. This pretty much sums it up right here... read this today: "Putin just showed us what stirring words about democracy and freedom are worth in the face of tanks and combat aircraft. The Georgians had the noble ideas and lofty dreams; the Russians had the troops and ammunition. Guess who won?" |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | | Originally posted by The17sss This pretty much sums it up right here... read this today: "Putin just showed us what stirring words about democracy and freedom are worth in the face of tanks and combat aircraft. The Georgians had the noble ideas and lofty dreams; the Russians had the troops and ammunition. Guess who won?" |
The first sentence might be correct, but Georgians most certainly didn't have the noblest of ideas, unless you consider an attempt to create an ethnically clean nation by killing minorities a noble idea. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Guess who won? |
Russians havent won yet, wait till the smoke clears ... So far Russia, EU, NATO, South Ossetia/Abkhazia and Georgia are still playing a political game to determine who gets what. And so far the odds arent in the Russian favour. Russia simply doesnt have the allies, political support and influence to win this. Even if they wrestle South Ossetia away from Georgia and allow Abkhazia to have de-facto independence, it will not be recognized. And anyone who will, risk having its arse nailed by either NATO, USA, EU - and with that logic there's little for anyone to gain by trying to be brave to recognize tiny and useless provinces in return for losing much more to NATO and USA. Its a no-brainer. |
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| The17sss |
| It's dicey man. I am curious as to how it will all play out |
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| otec |
The17sss
Here is another example of an article in the "Kremlin\Putin\Devil\SadamHussein\Whatever" controlled media.
http://www.gazeta.ru/column/gevorkyan/2817215.shtml
Am I blind or I see a critique of Russians goverment? Not harsh enough for you?
ps.
You can even your wife to read/translate it to you. I'm really interested in your opinion on this article in quite big newspaper in russia.
Btw, sorry if I've insulted you in a first place, just emotions |
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| The17sss |
| It's cool, I lose it on here sometimes too. I'll definitely have the article read to me tonight and get back to you... I'm curious to see what it says |
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| Magnetonium |
Jesus, thats a harsh article ... I am not used to reading stuff like that in Russian, usually its on English websites! :eek:
Russian state media announced that Russian military withdrawing on August 22. Doesnt get into specifics, but most likely they will withdraw to South Ossetian / Abkhazian borders.
Anyways, here's a development - over 50,000 Abkhazians have turned up in the Freedom Square in Abkhazian capital - thats a QUARTER of their population. Many people waving flags of Russia, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and oddly enough couple of EU.
The speaker delivered a clear message - that Abkhazia will NEVER ever become part of Georgia (i.e. the result of the conflict). The speaker asked Russia and its people recognize the republic's independence. I say to myself: IMPOSSIBLE. Why? Abkhazian and/or South Ossetian independence is an enormous threat to Russian Federation's territorial integrity and stability. Why? Chechnya and 1-2 other Russian provinces sure as hell wouldn't mind independence!
So here are Abkhazian options: remain status quo, submit to Tbilisi, or join Russian Federation.
First option prevails, as Abkhazian people have too much attitude and failure to see the big picture, and thus would not want to join Russia. Abkhazia is too blind to see the complexity of the situation. |
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| Magnetonium |
IT HAS BEGUN! (the withdrawal, that is). Yes, I know, yesterday's story, but I felt like sharing.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7577436.stm
| quote: |
Eyewitness: Russian troops pull back
By Gabriel Gatehouse
BBC News, Igoeti village, Georgia
When they left, they left fast.
All morning, the Russian soldiers had been standing listlessly around the checkpoint at Igoeti, just 35km (22 miles) from Tiblisi.
As they cradled their rifles and chatted to local villagers, it seemed they were in no hurry to go.
Then suddenly, at around noon, the first armoured vehicles appeared at speed from around a bend in the road.
Within half an hour tanks and other military vehicles were emerging from the undergrowth and lining up alongside the highway.
The soldiers sitting on top of their armoured personnel carriers seemed pleased to be withdrawing.
"I feel excited, wonderful," one soldier said. "I'm going home."
After brief goodbyes with some of the locals and journalists who had got to know them over the past week, they disappeared up the highway in the direction of South Ossetia, joining an ever-growing column of withdrawing Russian troops.
Tension
All that remained were the settling clouds of dust, tank tracks in the tarmac and an empty checkpoint.
That vacuum, though, was soon filled by Georgian police who arrived in large numbers in buses and pick-up trucks.
They had been waiting for this moment ever since the Russians arrived last Friday evening.
There had been some tension then as a Russian armoured personnel carrier sat in the middle of the village, flying the Russian flag.
Today, they took back control of Igoeti, but rather than remove the checkpoint, they took it over, stopping some buses of Georgian villagers venturing further up the road.
The Russians, they said, still had their troops on the ground close by.
Indeed, a Russian checkpoint manned by peacekeepers was still in operation seven kilometres further along, and they were not letting the Georgian police cars go any further.
The queues stretched for around 300m, as the policemen waited for news of when they would be allowed to follow the departing Russian soldiers.
Asked when he thought the peacekeepers would also depart, one policeman responded: "Only [Russian Prime Minister Vladimir] Putin knows when they are leaving."
Buffer zone
At Igoeti, the locals villagers were pleased with the day's events.
"I'm glad the Russians have gone," said one man. "No-one wants a war."
But Georgians will now be watching keenly to see just how far back the Russians will go.
Moscow has said it will withdraw most but not all of its troops.
Some will remain within a security buffer zone.
The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), which is monitoring the ceasefire on the ground, says it understands the zone should extend seven kilometres either side of the de facto border with South Ossetia.
The Russians have not yet defined the size and extent of that zone, and the issue is likely to cause tension in the days to come.
The presence of Russian peacekeepers too is a controversial one.
Moscow says it has the right to keep its forces in and around the South Ossetian area in order to protect the local population, many of whom hold Russian passports.
The Georgians feel quite simply that the presence of any armed Russian forces on their territory amounts to occupation.
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by otec
The17sss
Here is another example of an article in the "Kremlin\Putin\Devil\SadamHussein\Whatever" controlled media.
http://www.gazeta.ru/column/gevorkyan/2817215.shtml
Am I blind or I see a critique of Russians goverment? Not harsh enough for you? |
Ok I finally got it read. Yeah that's pretty brutal coming from a Russian source. Some serious brass balls on that woman. I wouldn't be surprised if she's marked now. Well maybe not yet, but she writes more stuff like that and it garners attention, she'll go the way of Anna Politskaya. That government control over meida is still there I believe, but implied rather than set in stone policy. |
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| otec |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Ok I finally got it read. Yeah that's pretty brutal coming from a Russian source. Some serious brass balls on that woman. I wouldn't be surprised if she's marked now. Well maybe not yet, but she writes more stuff like that and it garners attention, she'll go the way of Anna Politskaya. That government control over meida is still there I believe, but implied rather than set in stone policy. |
lol
well it's much better then in the US where the goverment has a stone policy on control over your media. |
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