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President of Poland and other high-ranking officials killed in plane crash (pg. 11)
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| jchung52 |
enjoy! |
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| Ravist |
| quote: | I like how Russians seem to think that they saved the world from Germany.
who did then?? |
It was a combined effort of the Allied Forces, dont forget Japan was in the equation too and the Americans did a good job fending off the japanese and did help in europe too. It's true the SU had the most deaths but they had stalin back then who was not sane at all and were ill equipped.
I do agree Putin shouldnt be leading the investigation, this is a Polish matter not Russian, doesnt matter if its in Russian territory, they can help with the investigation not lead it. |
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| LightsOut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
of course not but saying that technically, america did it is... ugh.
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agreed 100%. |
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| Xavier Moriarty |
| quote: | Originally posted by jchung52
enjoy! |
this is gonna be interesting!!! |
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| Vanos |
| quote: | | Europe would be German if it wasn't for Russia?! |
Not that it would be it was ALREADY lol atm.
Regarding your post well obviously it didnt fall exclusively due to SU efforts BUT SU accounted for the majority of the victory. Lame Italian allies and americans entering the war cetainly didnt help Hitler BUT these were not anyhow CRUCIAL factors for Hitler's defeat.
Regarding Britain, Hitler wasnt obssesed with taking it - historical fact. He was thinking of taking it easily but then after the defeat of luftwaffe in 1940 in Britain he decided to refocus his efforts - but not due to inability to take Britian but due to time constraints - it is actually something i learned not backhome but in York University just for the fact. Because in his strategy the speed was most crucial he decided not to waste time on Britian, which he viewed as of minor strategic importance. He could of taken it if he wanted but he thought that that way there would be not enough time to attack SU (becasue the longer he would wait the lower his chances would be and he knew it) - his ultimate goal and thus he shifted his efforts to the eastern front. |
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| LightsOut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ravist
It's true the SU had the most deaths but they had stalin back then who was not sane at all and were ill equipped.
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This.
Soviet deaths were so high because Stalin had no value for life, including that of his own people. Look at the Battle of Berlin, with the war essentially over and Berlin surrounded, Stalin sacrificed up to 5 thousand of his men to take the Reichstag, where the last couple hundred Waffen SS were holed up. He was obsessed with getting a picture of the Soviet Flag flying over Berlin from that building, and instead of just bombing it and moving on, ordered division after division to take take it at whatever cost...
just so he could have this to rub in the faces of britain, france, and america.
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| LightsOut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vanos
Regarding Britain, Hitler wasnt obssesed with taking it - historical fact. He was thinking of taking it easily but then after the defeat of luftwaffe in 1940 in Britain he decided to refocus his efforts - but not due to inability to take Britian but due to time constraints - it is actually something i learned not backhome but in York University just for the fact. Because in his strategy the speed was most crucial he decided not to waste time on Britian, which he viewed as of minor strategic importance. He could of taken it if he wanted but he thought that that way there would be not enough time to attack SU (becasue the longer he would wait the lower his chances would be and he knew it) - his ultimate goal and thus he shifted his efforts to the eastern front. |
I agree that Hitler could have taken Britain as well if he really wanted too, and lost any ambition too after the summer of 1940. And in that sense, "obsessed with taking Britain" was probably a bad choice of words. However, it doesn't change the fact that during the summer of 1940 it was his main objective, and because he lost so many planes in the conflict, he was not able to use "blitzkrieg" to its full potential as the Luftwaffe was constantly being stretched...which would prove very costly for him in Russia. |
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| Vanos |
| quote: | | Soviet deaths were so high because Stalin had no value for life, including that of his own people. Look at the Battle of Berlin, with the war essentially over and Berlin surrounded, Stalin sacrificed up to 5 thousand of his men to take the Reichstag, where the last couple hundred Waffen SS were holed up. He was obsessed with getting a picture of the Soviet Flag flying over Berlin from that building, and instead of just bombing it and moving on, ordered division after division to take take it at whatever cost... |
^ that is true. And especially in the early days of the war, due to Stalin's stubornness and carelessness millions of deaths were incurred. But I mentioned it as a side fact just to point out the enormous losses suffered by PEOPLE of SU. Please give some credit to all who died.
| quote: | | Sure Germany's failures can be attributed to a variety of mistakes made by Hitler in WWII, but his failure in Russia is what sealed Germany's fate. To argue otherwise would be asinine. Hitler's objective from the start (and this is according to well respected strategic historians such as Colin Gray) was to take over Russia. Doing so would provide him with the resources needed to sustain the Third Reich. His fumbling of the Russian conquest, along with the subsequent attack by the Russian is the TURNING POINT of WWII. |
Good post |
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| LightsOut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vanos
^ that is true. And especially in the early days of the war, due to Stalin's stubornness and carelessness millions of deaths were incurred. But I mentioned it as a side fact just to point out the enormous losses suffered by PEOPLE of SU. Please give some credit to all who died. |
Oh absolutely, lest we forget. And that goes for every country that participated.
| quote: | Originally posted by petro
Sure Germany's failures can be attributed to a variety of mistakes made by Hitler in WWII, but his failure in Russia is what sealed Germany's fate. To argue otherwise would be asinine. |
Missed this post earlier..
And I agree with you 100%, I never disputed that. I disputed the notion that if it wasn't for Russia Europe would be German today.
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His fumbling of the Russian conquest, along with the subsequent attack by the Russian is the TURNING POINT of WWII.
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And I agree as well, and more specifically I would say that it was the failure at Stalingrad that sealed Hitler's fate and was the turning point of the war. |
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| Vanos |
| quote: | | I disputed the notion that if it wasn't for Russia Europe would be German today. |
If Russia would fall to Germany in WW2, it could very well be the case. I mean no one really knows what would happen, but I would say it would be one of the likely outcomes - from purely logical viewpoint. |
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by mute79
^^ Yea, I was wondering if I was the only one that found that comment offensive.. |
I didnt mean it as offensive. Poland welcomed the Jews and defended them against everyone. I said it as saying the answer was the Poland was a nice and welcome place for them to stay and live and prosper. The aristocrats needed the Jewish people to come into the country and handle the economic trade and they did it very well.
And this thread has nothing to do with Jews for sure. I am so sorry for bringing it up. The only reason I said something because I was just reading a lot about the history.
I love Jewish people! I didn't mean to offend. :) |
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| LightsOut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Vanos
If Russia would fall to Germany in WW2, it could very well be the case. I mean no one really knows what would happen, but I would say it would be one of the likely outcomes - from purely logical viewpoint. |
I think its safe to say that coupled with Hitler's other tragic mistakes, yes his failure in Russia was absolutely a turning point that would put troops on all fronts on a race to Berlin.
Having said that, I don't think any country should claim responsibility for saving Europe from the Third Reich, everyone played their part... |
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