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President of Poland and other high-ranking officials killed in plane crash (pg. 28)
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| Xavier Moriarty |
what we need right now is John Rambo joining this thread, explaining why Russians are bad and killing a bunch of them with a bow and arrows.
wow, that was weak. wow!!! |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
so after the soviets caused famine in the ukraine (among other hostile acts), you still don't see mistrust of russia in the ukraine, you don't see anything wrong with that? that's backward thinking. what happened in the ukraine that cause the people to be blind to bad soviet influence? they should be mistrusting. i wouldn't go as far as hate but they should be mistrusting. |
omg Margs I already said this at least 3 times - none of the current people, President, anyone living in Russia right now have ANYTHING TO DO with the events of 1933-32 nor 1940-45! The orders came directly from Stalin and his group of "servants", who I cannot hold responsible for this, because they're dead! I can maybe send some hate mail to his granddaughter but she's an old and deeply troubled lady. I have NOTHING against Russians - they will ALWAYS remain as brothers and sisters in my heart. What am I to be suspicious about? What am I to mistrust them about? If every nation starts to whip out grudges against their neighbors and demanding appologies for events like this, what kind of a world are we going to live in? |
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
omg Margs I already said this at least 3 times - none of the current people, President, anyone living in Russia right now have ANYTHING TO DO with the events of 1933-32 nor 1940-45! The orders came directly from Stalin and his group of "servants", who I cannot hold responsible for this, because they're dead! I can maybe send some hate mail to his granddaughter but she's an old and deeply troubled lady. I have NOTHING against Russians - they will ALWAYS remain as brothers and sisters in my heart. What am I to be suspicious about? What am I to mistrust them about? If every nation starts to whip out grudges against their neighbors and demanding appologies for events like this, what kind of a world are we going to live in? |
that is a good mentality to have. i wish all people would have that mentality.
but you do have to understand, just because something happened in 1940 (which wasn't that long ago, btw) the same mentality still can exist. stalin's ideas still exist. just because there isn't one person to have the face of the idea it doesn't mean that manipulative forces still don't exist. people that were born and raised under communist rule still exist. people that were in charge under communist rule are still in charge. the agenda is still there and will be there for a while.
apologies and even only just admittance of wrong doing would do some good because at least it starts the conversation and starts the process of getting over it. sweeping things under the rug never does anyone any good. it's easy to say, it happened so long ago, it doesn't matter anymore. it does matter if the truth was never revealed. particularily for something that still has people alive from that time.
it would be different if we were talking about something in the 1500s but 1940 is not that long ago. |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
that is a good mentality to have. i wish all people would have that mentality.
but you do have to understand, just because something happened in 1940 (which wasn't that long ago, btw) the same mentality still can exist. stalin's ideas still exist. just because there isn't one person to have the face of the idea it doesn't mean that manipulative forces still don't exist. people that were born and raised under communist rule still exist. people that were in charge under communist rule are still in charge. the agenda is still there and will be there for a while.
apologies and even only just admittance of wrong doing would do some good because at least it starts the conversation and starts the process of getting over it. sweeping things under the rug never does anyone any good. it's easy to say, it happened so long ago, it doesn't matter anymore. it does matter if the truth was never revealed. particularily for something that still has people alive from that time.
it would be different if we were talking about something in the 1500s but 1940 is not that long ago. |
1940 can be a long time ago because very soon, we won't have any of war veterans left to tell their story. And also because most of the Stalin and Nazi murderers, are themselves dying of old age. Even if any of the idealogies still exist (neo-nazi movements are great examples), they will never take the form they took 60-70 years ago. I don't think the history will ever repeat itself like that. Having said that, it is quite possible we could have worse events in store. I don't think Russia will ever go back to the way things were back then - mostly because there is way too much corruption right now. And also because the relationship with the West is completely different. There will never be another iron curtain. Russia is no longer communist state that USSR was - it is a republic, and it's smaller.
All in all, my point is - people do not have to forget the tragedies of the past, but they have to stop blaming nations as a whole for them. Apart from setting up memorials and monetary compensations, as well as proper trials for any still existing war criminals - nothing can really be done about it. People of TODAY - so OUR generation, have to make sure that none of the tragegies repeat themselves. |
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| Magnetonium |
Very well said, FunkyCrew, very well said. :D |
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
1940 can be a long time ago because very soon, we won't have any of war veterans left to tell their story. And also because most of the Stalin and Nazi murderers, are themselves dying of old age. Even if any of the idealogies still exist (neo-nazi movements are great examples), they will never take the form they took 60-70 years ago. I don't think the history will ever repeat itself like that. Having said that, it is quite possible we could have worse events in store. I don't think Russia will ever go back to the way things were back then - mostly because there is way too much corruption right now. And also because the relationship with the West is completely different. There will never be another iron curtain. Russia is no longer communist state that USSR was - it is a republic, and it's smaller. |
yup. i agree, that those types of events will not happen again but very similar things are happening in the world at smaller scales. look at middle east. look at africa. ethnic cleansing still happens. people are being killed if they don't agree with the government.
i won't get into the whole russia is/isn't a democracy thing because they have a way to go to actually be democratic. like candiates that are not chosen by the old guard.
| quote: | | All in all, my point is - people do not have to forget the tragedies of the past, but they have to stop blaming nations as a whole for them. Apart from setting up memorials and monetary compensations, as well as proper trials for any still existing war criminals - nothing can really be done about it. People of TODAY - so OUR generation, have to make sure that none of the tragegies repeat themselves. |
it's one thing to stop blaming a nation after a tragedy when all the truth is reveal but if there are still things hidden then it's very difficult. for example, the katyn massacre. it was definitely the soviets that did it. it was stalin that made the orders. this was back in 1940. stalin died in 1953. poland kept trying to get the truth out into the open even until today but even in 2007 russian news was printing that it was the nazis responsible. and even as recent as this year, putin was making excuses about it. that it was revenge for poland beating the russians in a battle back in 1920. not only that, when putin made his half ass admittance, there were protests in russia critisizing him for being weak and bowing down.
so it's one thing to have the nation try and get over it once things are known but not if all the secrets are not revealed. it's like a step that has to take to start the process of healing. also, no one is actually blaming the russian people but the powers in russia that were/are running things. |
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| rabbitjoker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
No, the problem is the United States. |
How can you honestly say that the problem is a country which for the last 230 years has been the advocate for and model of democracy? America is not even close to being the problem.
America has consistently been the primary thrust behind global democratization and has stood for, fought for, invested in and exported freedom. Compare post-WWII in Holland vs. Czechoslovakia and 60 years later it is easy to see how fortunate those were who fell on the “free” side of the line.
Why is democracy important? Why is freedom an absolute imperative? Because it makes the world a safer, more prosperous and productive place. Real democracies don’t declare war against each other. Real democracies don’t have famine. Real democracies provide safety & sustenance. The whole world benefits from free people with true democratic governments. This is what America stands for; freedom definitely is not the problem.
Why does America support burgeoning democratic governments? Because after nearly 80 years of (failed) communist expansion, newly free people need to feel secure enough to freely develop their own republic without the lingering fear that former oppressors will reassume their old aggressive (invasionary) role. America provides this support a number of ways – but the goal is always the same: provide a cushion to allow the spark of democracy to fully ignite without the risk of meddling/intimidation by former communist rulers.
A romanticized view of former dictator-led homelands is totally out of touch with reality (I guess anything looks good when someone is a kid). The reality is that millions of people fled these very countries – life was that bad: life was so hard that packing up and leaving, moving across the entire planet to be free was a better option than staying oppressed (parents usually made this move for their children, making this romanticism even more curious). The privilege of freedom which many of these homelands now enjoy is in part thanks to America’s consistent democratic agenda and support.
America is not the problem. America, if history proves anything, has been the solution. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by rabbitjoker
How can you honestly say that the problem is a country which for the last 230 years has been the advocate for and model of democracy? America is not even close to being the problem.
... ... ...
America has consistently been the primary thrust behind global democratization and has stood for, fought for, invested in and exported freedom. |
You're partially right, I do think that United States is an AMAZING country that is important in preserving our Western way of life which is being seriously threatened today. Democracy today is so because of United States. BUT >
... throughout those 230 years of its existence, United States often SUPPORTED, CREATED and aligned with some of the world's WORST human rights violators. For example, Saudi Arabia, a close ally. They also OVERTHREW DEMOCRATICALLY elected governments, too - such as Mosaddegh of Iran in 1953. An example for the Cold War - Pinochet, Suharto - American puppets and awful criminals. American-led campaigns that resulted in severe human rights violations and terror in various Latin American countries, particularly Operation Contra. UN actually CONDEMNED United States for crimes against democracy and human rights violations in Nicaragua, but was obviously vetoed and ignored.
You read too many fairy tales, my man. Democracy is not what it appears to be. America is playing a different game - its called imperialism, and it uses this democracy wildcard when it pleases, when the moment is right. Otherwise it quietly works along brutal dictatorships. Noam Chomsky showed it many times how American media manipulates people into believing that United States is for democracy, for human rights, and so on. Not always so.
So yes, America IS part of the problem. They single-handedly keep in power many dictators around the world, simply because they are their puppets. You see, United States has that "sole superpower" mentality, which as a result has driven it into massive debt and is bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Yes, they took down Saddam, but only after they helped him come to power, and via third-party channels armed him to the teeth with chemical weapons and arms to attack Iran.
Next point, please.
United States has done many great things for the world, yes, but some of it is fairytales. Europe developed democracy mostly on its own, Americans didnt send tanks to Czechoslovakia to force them to abandon authoritarian regimes. Czechoslovakian people themselves decided to go democratic ways in 1991. And Holland was merely liberated from Nazi occupation (by Canadians mostly, actually, NOT Americans! eeesh), and besides - Holland already had democratic principles in place.
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
yup. i agree, that those types of events will not happen again but very similar things are happening in the world at smaller scales. look at middle east. look at africa. ethnic cleansing still happens. people are being killed if they don't agree with the government.
i won't get into the whole russia is/isn't a democracy thing because they have a way to go to actually be democratic. like candiates that are not chosen by the old guard. |
oh Russia is far from being democratic - it's all for a show, but it is no longer communist like Korea is.
| quote: | it's one thing to stop blaming a nation after a tragedy when all the truth is reveal but if there are still things hidden then it's very difficult. for example, the katyn massacre. it was definitely the soviets that did it. it was stalin that made the orders. this was back in 1940. stalin died in 1953. poland kept trying to get the truth out into the open even until today but even in 2007 russian news was printing that it was the nazis responsible. and even as recent as this year, putin was making excuses about it. that it was revenge for poland beating the russians in a battle back in 1920. not only that, when putin made his half ass admittance, there were protests in russia critisizing him for being weak and bowing down.
so it's one thing to have the nation try and get over it once things are known but not if all the secrets are not revealed. it's like a step that has to take to start the process of healing. also, no one is actually blaming the russian people but the powers in russia that were/are running things. |
tbh, I've never heard Putin address this issue anywhere, so I can't even argue on what was said - and I never seen press relating to Katyn. But like Mangetonium has mentioned already - they have to be careful with the amount of archives they open. It can potentially be a very bad Pandora's box for Russia. I'm not saying it's right but that's how it is. But I was under the impression that since the memorial was built and this was the 70th anniversary and all, Russia has accepted the blame so to speak |
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| Mag1k |
hahahahahahah .... After trolling this for a few days I had to post on here.
I really am not planning on insulting anyone's intelligence on here nor am I planning on re-educating some of the people on here who have had "soviets are bad and theyr to blame for the fact the sun sets at night" drilled by their grandparents from the time they were walking under tables. However it has to be said, that people on here do have to move on.
This is one Russian not communist that will NOT even come close to apologizing for the "Katyn massacre" inflicted by, *drum-roll* COMMUNISTS...
An apology will not come out when it comes to the mythical notion of a "Golodomor" either. Which was a failed attempt by Yuschenko to increase tensions between two very close cultures based on an event that had next to no evidence, live testimonials claiming it as fake, pictures revealed by WESTERN experts as fake and finally full abandonment of the project even by the "pathetic orange patriots".
My condolences to the people of Poland and to the relatives of the people that lost their lives. However your an independent country now stop trying to blame everything on the evil Russians.
PEACE |
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| Kamka |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Next point, please.
United States has done many great things for the world, yes, but some of it is fairytales. Europe developed democracy mostly on its own, Americans didnt send tanks to Czechoslovakia to force them to abandon authoritarian regimes. Czechoslovakian people themselves decided to go democratic ways in 1991. And Holland was merely liberated from Nazi occupation (by Canadians mostly, actually, NOT Americans! eeesh), and besides - Holland already had democratic principles in place.
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Just a few corrections:
1. The so-called "Velvet Revolution" (i.e. when the communist regime was overthrowed) actually happened in Nov. 1989, then events leading to dismantling of the regime followed sometime around Dec. 1989. Many people back home now believe that it was all orchestrated internally (i.e., from within the ranks of party members themselves) because they realized that the system was no longer sustainable and because of the changes that were happening in other Eastern block European countries. But people who protested on the streets during that time probably sincerely believed that they themselves are making a change.
2. | quote: | | Americans didnt send tanks to Czechoslovakia to force them to abandon authoritarian regimes |
No, the Americans didn't do that during the Cold War, but Soviet Union (then under the leadership of Leonid Brezhnev) did send tanks to Czechoslovakia in August 1968 to suppress the liberal reforms that were taking place (also the armies of East Germany, Poland, Hungary, and Bulgaria participated in this invasion as well). Although - just to be fair - some Czechoslovak hardline communist leaders did send a secret invitation to the Soviet authorities, but the highest ranking politicians back home at the time were against it. Ever heard of the 'Prague Spring' and Alexander Dubcek?
3. | quote: | | besides - Holland already had democratic principles in place. |
I am not all that well educated on the specific conditions of what life was like in my country during the first Czechoslovak Republic (1918-1938), but I believe that pre-WWII it was more or less operating on democratic principles - probably there were multiple political parties and people could choose who to vote for in elections - that's why even the Sudeten Germans had their own political party who could represent them, and this party became sort of like carrying out Hitler's plans of annexation through means of political subversion (i.e. they claimed that ethnic Germans are repressed, which wasn't true). After WWII ended, the 3-million or so Germans who were living in the territory of what is today the Czech Republic were (also some Hungarians who were living in Slovakia) were kicked out of the country (see "Beneš decrees" if you want to know more about this), and then, during general elections in 1948, the Communist Party won a majority in the Czech lands and after they came into power, they effectively terminated multi-party political democracy.
Some of my comments may already be taking this discussion away from the events that were happening during WWII and more towards the discussion about the Cold War, and for that I apologize. |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mag1k
An apology will not come out when it comes to the mythical notion of a "Golodomor" either. Which was a failed attempt by Yuschenko to increase tensions between two very close cultures based on an event that had next to no evidence, live testimonials claiming it as fake, pictures revealed by WESTERN experts as fake and finally full abandonment of the project even by the "pathetic orange patriots".
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I'm sorry, huh?
| quote: | | On November 28th 2006, the Verkhovna Rada (Parliament of Ukraine) had passed a Law defining the Holodomor as a deliberate Act of Genocide. Since then many nations have recognized that the Holodomor was an act of Genocide against the Ukrainian people and they include Australia, Brazil, Canada, Columbia, Estonia, Ecuador, Georgia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Mexico, Paraguay, Peru, Poland and the United States. Other countries have made a Holodomor declaration and they include Argentina, Czech Republic, Chile, Slovak Republic, Spain, Balearic Islands (Spain) and the Vatican. Russia is in complete denial and is exercizing political influence to deny that this event occured and that it was a deliberate act. In fact in Russia it was made illegal to commemorate this event. |
| quote: | | Denial of the famine by Soviet authorities, including President Mikhail Kalinin and Foreign Minister Maxim Litvinov, was immediate and continued into the 1980s. The Soviet party line was echoed at the time of the famine by some prominent Western journalists, including Walter Duranty and Louis Fischer. The denial of the famine was a highly successful and well orchestrated disinformation campaign by the Soviet government . Stalin "had achieved the impossible: he had silenced all the talk of hunger... Millions were dying, but the nation hymned the praises of collectivization", said historian and writer Edvard Radzinsky. That was the first major instance of Soviet authorities adopting Hitler's Big Lie propaganda technique to sway world opinion, to be followed by similar campaigns over the Moscow Trials and denial of the Gulag labor camp system, according to Robert Conquest. |
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