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President of Poland and other high-ranking officials killed in plane crash (pg. 29)
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| Cosmic Fur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mag1k
After trolling this for a few days I had to post on here.
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You mean lurking.
| quote: | Originally posted by Mag1k
"Katyn massacre"
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Why did you put this in quotes? Are you implying that it wasn't really a massacre or that it didn't really happen?
And Margs,
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but you do have to understand, just because something happened in 1940 (which wasn't that long ago, btw) the same mentality still can exist. stalin's ideas still exist. just because there isn't one person to have the face of the idea it doesn't mean that manipulative forces still don't exist.
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but this is a crock of . Stalin was a paranoid psychopath who got into the position of absolutely ruthless dictatorship. Like any good dictator, he made everyone under him obey through fear and propaganda regardless of what they actually believed. Anyone who visibly didn't agree with Stalin was done away with. It's not like everyone else was as bat crazy as he was. Do you still have a grudge against the modern German government because of what Hitler was able to accomplish? |
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| Abercrombie |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kamka
Just a few corrections:
1. The so-called "Velvet Revolution" (i.e. when the communist regime was overthrowed) actually happened in Nov. 1989, then events leading to dismantling of the regime followed sometime around Dec. 1989. Many people back home now believe that it was all orchestrated internally (i.e., from within the ranks of party members themselves) because they realized that the system was no longer sustainable and because of the changes that were happening in other Eastern block European countries. But people who protested on the streets during that time probably sincerely believed that they themselves are making a change.
2.
No, the Americans didn't do that during the Cold War, but Soviet Union (then under the leadership of Leonid Brezhnev) did send tanks to Czechoslovakia in August 1968 to suppress the liberal reforms that were taking place (also the armies of East Germany, Poland, Hungary, and Bulgaria participated in this invasion as well). Although - just to be fair - some Czechoslovak hardline communist leaders did send a secret invitation to the Soviet authorities, but the highest ranking politicians back home at the time were against it. Ever heard of the 'Prague Spring' and Alexander Dubcek?
3. I am not all that well educated on the specific conditions of what life was like in my country during the first Czechoslovak Republic (1918-1938), but I believe that pre-WWII it was more or less operating on democratic principles - probably there were multiple political parties and people could choose who to vote for in elections - that's why even the Sudeten Germans had their own political party who could represent them, and this party became sort of like carrying out Hitler's plans of annexation through means of political subversion (i.e. they claimed that ethnic Germans are repressed, which wasn't true). After WWII ended, the 3-million or so Germans who were living in the territory of what is today the Czech Republic were (also some Hungarians who were living in Slovakia) were kicked out of the country (see "Beneš decrees" if you want to know more about this), and then, during general elections in 1948, the Communist Party won a majority in the Czech lands and after they came into power, they effectively terminated multi-party political democracy.
Some of my comments may already be taking this discussion away from the events that were happening during WWII and more towards the discussion about the Cold War, and for that I apologize. |
I love all your posts in this thread. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kamka
Just a few corrections:
1. The so-called "Velvet Revolution" (i.e. when the communist regime was overthrowed) actually happened in Nov. 1989, then events leading to dismantling of the regime followed sometime around Dec. 1989. Many people back home now believe that it was all orchestrated internally (i.e., from within the ranks of party members themselves) because they realized that the system was no longer sustainable and because of the changes that were happening in other Eastern block European countries. But people who protested on the streets during that time probably sincerely believed that they themselves are making a change.
2.
No, the Americans didn't do that during the Cold War, but Soviet Union (then under the leadership of Leonid Brezhnev) did send tanks to Czechoslovakia in August 1968 to suppress the liberal reforms that were taking place (also the armies of East Germany, Poland, Hungary, and Bulgaria participated in this invasion as well). Although - just to be fair - some Czechoslovak hardline communist leaders did send a secret invitation to the Soviet authorities, but the highest ranking politicians back home at the time were against it. Ever heard of the 'Prague Spring' and Alexander Dubcek?
3. I am not all that well educated on the specific conditions of what life was like in my country during the first Czechoslovak Republic (1918-1938), but I believe that pre-WWII it was more or less operating on democratic principles - probably there were multiple political parties and people could choose who to vote for in elections - that's why even the Sudeten Germans had their own political party who could represent them, and this party became sort of like carrying out Hitler's plans of annexation through means of political subversion (i.e. they claimed that ethnic Germans are repressed, which wasn't true). After WWII ended, the 3-million or so Germans who were living in the territory of what is today the Czech Republic were (also some Hungarians who were living in Slovakia) were kicked out of the country (see "Beneš decrees" if you want to know more about this), and then, during general elections in 1948, the Communist Party won a majority in the Czech lands and after they came into power, they effectively terminated multi-party political democracy.
Some of my comments may already be taking this discussion away from the events that were happening during WWII and more towards the discussion about the Cold War, and for that I apologize. |
You pretty much double-stated my points and put a lot more detail into them. I said 1991 (Soviet's demise), but technically not far off from the 1989 first wave of revolutions that swept Eastern Europe. I was thinking of a different event, oh well.
MOST people in Eastern Europe wanted change, even the Russian people (hence the failure of the August 1991 coup attempt). You may think that the party officials were behind the independence, but in reality - it was the people. The party wouldn't even take a without approval from Moscow. Hundreds of thousands of Czechoslovakian people went into the streets, and same in many other Warsaw Pact countries to demand change. Look it up. Fact: On November 20, 1989, over 100,000 Czechs took to the streets of Prague, while the Party was sitting and waiting. Later politicians gladly complied and caved in, because there was no opposition from Moscow. There was not going to be an order like in '68 to send in tanks to crush the protests.
When I said American tanks didnt liberate Prague, I made a crude hint towards Iraq. Democracy doesnt work when its forced down your throat with a gun or a tank. You can only suppress people's own self-determination that way. Iraq is a failed democracy, because their people are not ready for it, they didn't ask for democracy. |
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| Mag1k |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cosmic Fur
Why did you put this in quotes? Are you implying that it wasn't really a massacre or that it didn't really happen?
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I'm not in denial of anything, far from it... But I'm also not the one that's looking for an apology from Saakashvili on behalf of what Stalin did, or how about asking Queen Elizabeth for an apology for King George V financing the Russian Revolution...
FunkyCrew... Proof of fake documents, proof of fake photos used at the Sevastopol exhibit (photos from American Depression), countless interviews with individuals alive at those times, and the fact that everyone was starving at those times Ukraine included. |
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cosmic Fur
but this is a crock of . Stalin was a paranoid psychopath who got into the position of absolutely ruthless dictatorship. Like any good dictator, he made everyone under him obey through fear and propaganda regardless of what they actually believed. Anyone who visibly didn't agree with Stalin was done away with. It's not like everyone else was as bat crazy as he was. Do you still have a grudge against the modern German government because of what Hitler was able to accomplish? |
you must be crazy to think that it was 1 guy that controlled 350 million people (or however many soviets there was at the time). honestly. if anyone that didn't agree was killed, who remained? a bunch of people that did agree or at least went along with it. if it was only stalin, then russia should stop hiding the archives of everything and let it out into the open (we already discussed why they don't, since it revealed how deep the issues went). there was a whole hierarchy of people with the same agenda, which continued well into the end of 1980s to spread the communist "fear". just like in nazi germany, hitler didn't do it alone. these ideas are still around.
so stalin was gone by 1953 or something right? why did you and your family leave russia? i mean, the one evil dictator was gone so it should be all hunky dory, no?
i personally don't hold a grudge against any one person/nationality but that is because i am young, but yes, the polish people hold a grudge against germany too. especially now that germany and russia are in oil partnership by building pipelines around poland to poland over. different issues but it adds to the "grudge".
all my posts in this thread try to explain the general idea of why there may be distrust between countries. i don't agree with it, but i understand why it may be there. it's not bull, it's reality. i don't agree with it but i understand it. |
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mag1k
hahahahahahah .... After trolling this for a few days I had to post on here.
I really am not planning on insulting anyone's intelligence on here nor am I planning on re-educating some of the people on here who have had "soviets are bad and theyr to blame for the fact the sun sets at night" drilled by their grandparents from the time they were walking under tables. However it has to be said, that people on here do have to move on.
This is one Russian not communist that will NOT even come close to apologizing for the "Katyn massacre" inflicted by, *drum-roll* COMMUNISTS...
An apology will not come out when it comes to the mythical notion of a "Golodomor" either. Which was a failed attempt by Yuschenko to increase tensions between two very close cultures based on an event that had next to no evidence, live testimonials claiming it as fake, pictures revealed by WESTERN experts as fake and finally full abandonment of the project even by the "pathetic orange patriots".
My condolences to the people of Poland and to the relatives of the people that lost their lives. However your an independent country now stop trying to blame everything on the evil Russians.
PEACE |
russians honestly have some sort of confidence issues. what the hell are you talking about? no where in this thread did anyone say, "i BLAME russia for everything that is evil in the world." in fact, only the russians keep on say, "don't blame anything on us." no one is blaming you for a plane crash. don't have to be so defensive all the time.
there are conspiracy theories flying around. guess where they are coming from? RUSSIA. reporters from all over the world are in russia and reporting on what the russian people are saying.
also, no one is asking you personally to apologize for anything. you didn't ing do and you make no difference in the grand scheme of things. just have some respect for other people. do you even know what tact and empathy is? who raised you, a pack of wild dogs?
how different is russia right now from when it was a communist country? would any of you go back and live there, as it is right now? |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
you must be crazy to think that it was 1 guy that controlled 350 million people (or however many soviets there was at the time). honestly. if anyone that didn't agree was killed, who remained? a bunch of people that did agree or at least went along with it. if it was only stalin, then russia should stop hiding the archives of everything and let it out into the open (we already discussed why they don't, since it revealed how deep the issues went). there was a whole hierarchy of people with the same agenda, which continued well into the end of 1980s to spread the communist "fear". just like in nazi germany, hitler didn't do it alone. these ideas are still around.
so stalin was gone by 1953 or something right? why did you and your family leave russia? i mean, the one evil dictator was gone so it should be all hunky dory, no?
i personally don't hold a grudge against any one person/nationality but that is because i am young, but yes, the polish people hold a grudge against germany too. especially now that germany and russia are in oil partnership by building pipelines around poland to poland over. different issues but it adds to the "grudge".
all my posts in this thread try to explain the general idea of why there may be distrust between countries. i don't agree with it, but i understand why it may be there. it's not bull, it's reality. i don't agree with it but i understand it. |
It's hard to believe, yes, but it was ONE guy controlling everything. Stalin was so paranoid that someone was out to kill him that he didn't even trust doctors, and travelled everywhere in heavily armoured cars. He was a ing paranoid mother******. He gave order to everything. Katyn was ordered by Stalin. Mass purges and mass killings were on Stalin's orders, or his very close associates - mostly ETHNIC GEORGIANS (Beria, Orzhonikidze, Stalin's REAL name = Dzhugashvili, etc).
Once Stalin died, thats when the Party was finally able to speak out. First following leader, Krushchev (ethnic Ukrainian), organized a meeting of all senior party members behind closed doors, and delivered a stunning speech (now well-known), in which he denounced Stalin's actions as crimes against communism. I am no ting you here. Stalin was untouchable when he was in charge. |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Mag1k
... Proof of fake documents, proof of fake photos used at the Sevastopol exhibit (photos from American Depression), countless interviews with individuals alive at those times, and the fact that everyone was starving at those times Ukraine included. |
so a dozen of Western countries accepted the events that never existed? including Canada?
you're contradicting yourself - so Holodomor never happened but the other Soviet states were starving, so which one?
oh and until you state some sources, you're talking out of your ass :) |
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| rabbitjoker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
You pretty much double-stated my points and put a lot more detail into them. |
You are delusional if you think Kamka's 3 point post is an agreement with your statement. |
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| VDub |
| quote: | Originally posted by rabbitjoker
A romanticized view of former dictator-led homelands is totally out of touch with reality (I guess anything looks good when someone is a kid). The reality is that millions of people fled these very countries – life was that bad: life was so hard that packing up and leaving, moving across the entire planet to be free was a better option than staying oppressed (parents usually made this move for their children, making this romanticism even more curious). The privilege of freedom which many of these homelands now enjoy is in part thanks to America’s consistent democratic agenda and support.
America is not the problem. America, if history proves anything, has been the solution. |
What kills me is that most (maybe all) of the pro-east anti-west posters here are themselves from these countries that their parents pulled them from...
Ask your parents, if life is so great over there, why did they bring you here???
I came here when I was 5. My mother brought us here because it was better. I love Chile and being Chilean. But I will NEVER talk down the place (and it's history) that's made my life so much better then I wouldve had down there.... |
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| LightsOut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Krushchev |
Don't even get me started on this guy....:whip: |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by VDub
What kills me is that most (maybe all) of the pro-east anti-west posters here are themselves from these countries that their parents pulled them from...
Ask your parents, if life is so great over there, why did they bring you here???
I came here when I was 5. My mother brought us here because it was better. I love Chile and being Chilean. But I will NEVER talk down the place (and it's history) that's made my life so much better then I wouldve had down there.... |
I don't remember anyone saying that life in Eastern Europe is much better than over here. At least I didn't say so. Is that the best argument you have against our discussion? |
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