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President of Poland and other high-ranking officials killed in plane crash (pg. 13)
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
honey, you don't want to compare family war stories with me. honestly.
EDIT: family war stories and even worse post war stories. |
I'm not trying to measure e-penises here at the expense of our dead relatives lol
all I'm saying that WWII is more just a history chapter for our family. |
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| rabbitjoker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
whats your source on that? also, by that source, what was hitler's "tally"??? |
My source is R.J. Rummel who has written extensively on Russian, Chinese and German acts. He is pretty much -the- expert on documenting murder by governments.
Stalin: 50mm
Hitler: 20mm
Mao Zedong: 35mm
(Interesing that Rummel also reports 1.5mm deaths of Polish people who were removed from Poland post WWI). |
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| Nrg2Nfinit |
Lol this is hilarious. Weren't the Russians primarily part of the axis side with germany in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?
Had germany not broken the pact and invaded the soviet Union the Axis side would have probably won the war.
So in fact you can thank hitler for being too greedy in allowing the allieds to win the war. Otherwise russia had no reason to stray from axis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...viet_Axis_talks |
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| Vanos |
| ^ those numbers seem on the very liberal side for Stalin. And as you probably know estimates vary wildly from historian to historian. I highly doubt Stalin was connected with the death of over than 40m people, from what i know, but obviously we'll never find out and regardlessly the amount is insane. However, another thing, Im not a big expert so i wont tell 100% right now but as far as I know, it is commonly mentioned and at least according to most estimates that Mao was actually the most murderous dictator in history followed by Stalin and Hitler. I think ive even heard more liberal estimates of Mao's death toll going into 100m. |
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| Xavier Moriarty |
| quote: | Originally posted by rabbitjoker
He is pretty much -the- expert on documenting murder by governments.
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the same guy who is a strong supporter of war in iraq??? the same guy who wants to push democracy every single country in the world, by any means necessary??
, my head hurts !!!! |
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| petro |
| quote: | Originally posted by LightsOut
Missed this post earlier..
And I agree with you 100%, I never disputed that. I disputed the notion that if it wasn't for Russia Europe would be German today. |
I suppose I should have expanded more on my argument. A Germany with Russia's seemingly endless amount of resources would've been a more of a formidable opponent for the allies. The army that the allies fought was a retreating one, constantly outnumbered and ill-equipped. A fully mobilized German army with a constant supply of oil, food, and equipment in my opinion could have easily held back or even beaten the allied forces.
This is all hypothetical of course - who knows if Hitler would have even had the kind of time to utilize Russia's oil and other natural resources in time to fend off an allied attack. But he was very close to taking the first step to achieving it, and had he - Germany could've provided a much stronger and sustained resistance.
No matter how you slice it, if Germany managed that, their realm of influence over Europe would be much more stronger and overt than what it is today. |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by geroin
ughhh... |
lol derzhis'! breath in, breath out :) |
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| Magnetonium |
First off, I'd like to say that this thread has gone a long way from its original topic, But, its very interesting, nevertheless.
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
I like how Russians seem to think that they saved the world from Germany.
Poland and Polish people have a very different view of Russians. To the rest of the world Russia was saying "we saved the world from Hitler, we are the best, thank us". Meanwhile they thought that they could take Poland and the other Eastern bloc countries as parting gifts setting up Communist governments while the countries were rebuilding after being blown up to . The Allied forces wanted the war over so they turned the other cheek and headed home. Russia has been controlling the Polish government with pay offs and scare tactics since 1945. Holding military presence right outside the biggest cities in Poland until at least the 80s. Always menacing. ... ... ... ... |
Obviously it wasnt just the Russians who defeated Nazi Germany. But you got to understand this - if Hitler won, he would have eradicated all Slavs, including mine and your predecessors. Stalin was the lesser of the two evils, he wasnt interested in eradicating countries to fullfill some 'pure German' scheme. In that sense, you have to admit that Stalin re-invading Poland from Hitler was the best thing that could have happened to Poland. You didnt expect that Allies would give a about Poland, like they would sacrifice any more of their troops to attack Soviet Union? They were too busily handing over everything on a platter to Stalin, including hundreds of thousands of people who seeked asylum from Allies, but were instead given to Stalin for mass executions and torture. Allies played their part in war crimes as a result.
AND, you are completely forgeting the Yalta conference of 1945. Poland received GENEROUSLY many former German lands east of Oder river, and huge chunks of former East Prussia. Millions of Germans were resettled from lands that Poland happily accepted. Poland may have lived under Soviet ego for half a century, but Polska culture survived and is stronger today.
Remember in World War II, how Polish people were considered already as "inferior culture" and second-class citizens by the Nazis? For example, on a bus, Germans has special areas reserved for 'Germans Only', and Poles got only the ty spots in the back. Once he was gonna finish with Jews and the Russians, he would have started with Polish people too.
In a way, many of these former Soviet republics are very ungrateful. My great-grand-grandfather is probably rolling in his grave, because he died for nothing (he died liberating Baltic countries). Today, in Latvia there are annual Nazi parades!
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Poland was not a communist country until after the war because of pressures from Russia |
No, Poland was actually quite communist by the end of WW2. Why?
a) Soviets executed most of the nationalists in Katyn and elsewhere;
b) Remaining nationalists were mostly destroyed by Nazis during the famous Warsaw uprising by the Poles, who wanted to liberate their own capital (as Soviet troops stood on the other side of the river and waited). Pro-Soviet Poles were too busily getting groomed by the Soviets, or running over to Soviet lines.
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Poland has always been in the middle of every damn war that they don't want anything to do with. In World War II, Poland lost the largest percentage of people, so I dunno, who really did lose more of their culture? Poland has always been overtaken, divided and then past back and forth between other countries. Even the damn Swedes wanted a piece of Poland. It's also surprising that Polish people are as civil as they are. There is no mass genocide against other countries, there is no revenge killings, but I don't blame the Poles for being bitter, and not trusting other countries after so many centuries of being ed over. Thank the Catholic Church I guess for giving the Polaks something else to do. |
If you're looking back further than 1920, then you have to understand that back then it was the age of autocratic empires. Every single dam piece of land somewhere was contested by some empire, be it the Russians, Habsburg, German, Prussian, Russian, Austro-Hungarian, British, etc. Poland would have been controlled by one empire or another. In fact, several empires actually played hand-in-hand carving Poland between each other, it wasnt just the Russians.
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But for the sake of the Polish people since they do not trust Russians, Putin should not be "heading the investigation". |
Here's one big reason why you SHOULD trust Putin on this one. In Russia, there is so much corruption, bureaucracy and ignorance, that most of the times the only way things get done properly and fairly is when Putin takes charge or notices the situation. If you gave this investigation to some dimwhit from Smolensk, it could cause a national disaster for Russia if it was done poorly, it may take forever, etc. etc. Putin will get this job done, properly, and he has no bias against Polish people - otherwise he wouldn't be opening the Katyn memorial in the first place. |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
In a way, many of these former Soviet republics are very ungrateful. My great-grand-grandfather is probably rolling in his grave, because he died for nothing (he died liberating Baltic countries). Today, in Latvia there are annual Nazi parades! |
THANK YOU!
bang on, my words exactly - rolling in his grave (my grandfather in my case)
Lithuania and Estonia are the worst atm - they are completely eradicating any signs of Soviet presence, memorials turn down, veterans presecuted for wearing their medals on May 9th, etc etc |
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| Abercrombie |
| quote: | Originally posted by jchung52
enjoy! |
Don't bring Cuba into this! :D |
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| gummybear |
| who says nationalism is dead in Canada...:) |
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