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President of Poland and other high-ranking officials killed in plane crash (pg. 7)
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| me@t k@tie |
I really hate all of these accusations. It's too early to say much right now, so please stop talking out of your asses. We will hopefully have some more insight once the black boxes have been deciphered. They haven't even been able to find/identify over half the bodies yet. From what I have heard, it doesn't sound at all like the plane itself had anything to do with this. The pilot is the one who decided not to land somewhere else. Even if the passengers wanted to arrive on time and pressured him to land, it was the pilot who made the ultimate decision to make the landing attempts. I am very saddened by what happened. :( RIP Lech Kazynski and all the others who were on the plane.
I think that this horrific tragedy will help bring attention to the reason why they were going to Smolensk/Katyn in the first place. It almost feels like the thousands of soldiers who died in the massacre 70 years ago are finally getting their story known to the world.
Niech Bóg błogosławi Polskę. |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by VDub
I wish you didn't quote because I wanted to edit the kid rocket science bit. I appologize for being condescending Kris. I'm just a little bothered by someone arguing so much with me about a subject that I'm very passionate about.
I've already conceded to the point that it was pilot error that caused this crash. Not entirely the aircraft's fault. Although if there was an ILS present, they wouldve been able to land in this fog... |
no offence taken!
I'm defensive because none of the news reports have mentioned anything remotely close to what you're saying - malfunctioning plane
in fact, it was stated that the plane was checked and upgraded electronics-wise (see The Global Mail article I quoted earlier) before the trip
ANY airplane can be nicknamed a flying coffin - how many damn boeings have crashed in the recent years? dozens!
ILS were present, but AGAIN it was stated that the pilot ignored the instructions and did not fly over to Minsk - pressure from the president? maybe... his own decision? perhaps.. but can we please stop jumping on irrelevent bandwagons? |
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Why? The answer is on the same link of yours.
If Putin does go all the way with opening all archives, issue official apology and basically taking personal blame, he will open a huge can of worms for many other Stalin's crimes to be dealt with, as a precedent, i.e. "Why did Putin apologize for Katyn but not for hundreds of other Stalin's crimes?". They would rather accept that Stalin did commit all these crimes, wrap them together ("victims of totalitarian regimes"), acknowledge they happened, build memorials for each, heal wounds and carry on. ESPECIALLY separate them from Soviet contributions in WW2 in defeating Nazi Germany, in which Russians paid a heavy price and contributed significantly to the defeat of Nazi Germany, a huge sacrifice. Otherwise, countries and groups will start asking for compensation, international declarations, and so on. It's a very sensitive issue, and Russians probably feel like they are being asked too much, considering the Soviet past and how it may still harm its image today. Opening the dark archives may make this political situation worse, and it will further place a bigger shadow on Soviet contributions in World War II.
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I like how Russians seem to think that they saved the world from Germany.
Poland and Polish people have a very different view of Russians. To the rest of the world Russia was saying "we saved the world from Hitler, we are the best, thank us". Meanwhile they thought that they could take Poland and the other Eastern bloc countries as parting gifts setting up Communist governments while the countries were rebuilding after being blown up to . The Allied forces wanted the war over so they turned the other cheek and headed home. Russia has been controlling the Polish government with pay offs and scare tactics since 1945. Holding military presence right outside the biggest cities in Poland until at least the 80s. Always menacing. But this wasn't the first time that Russia has been in control of Poland. They have been salvating over the land since like the 1700 hundreds.
Poland was not a communist country until after the war because of pressures from Russia and since the Allies didn't care, what was Poland supposed to do. They bent over and took it until finally the people were tired of getting ed in the ass by Russia and strong and united enough to take over the government. The action of the Polish people did not only free Poland but many of the other Eastern Bloc countries and eventually Communism in Russia.
Poland has always been in the middle of every damn war that they don't want anything to do with. In World War II, Poland lost the largest percentage of people, so I dunno, who really did lose more of their culture? Poland has always been overtaken, divided and then past back and forth between other countries. Even the damn Swedes wanted a piece of Poland. It's also surprising that Polish people are as civil as they are. There is no mass genocide against other countries, there is no revenge killings, but I don't blame the Poles for being bitter, and not trusting other countries after so many centuries of being ed over. Thank the Catholic Church I guess for giving the Polaks something else to do.
EDIT: lol. I know this has nothing to do with the actual topic of the thread. I know without a doubt that the accident was the cause of the pilot and the people on board telling him to land right away that caused it. But for the sake of the Polish people since they do not trust Russians, Putin should not be "heading the investigation". |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
In World War II, Poland lost the largest percentage of people, so I dunno, who really did lose more of their culture? |
Margs, please do your research next time - Poland only has reported civilian losses of 500,000, as opposed to 14 mil. of Soviets
no military deaths are being reported (from the first glance anyway)
regardless, most of the smaller countries paid the bigger price in that war - Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Ukraine, but are you trying to say that the Nazi rule would have been nicer?
Stalin was known for his atrocities, and oppression of his own people - but I'm not sure what can be done now, 70 years later? |
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| hardcore_barbie |
| quote: | Originally posted by hit_it
"The pilot had over 3000 hours in the air. He was 36 years old"
Can anyone who knows a little about planes tell me if 3000 hours in the air for a pilot is a lot or not that many. For me it seems like he wasn't experienced enough. 3000 hr and 36 years old? That for me seems like a rookie, let a lone captain of a presidential plane. But then again, I'm not an expert, maybe 3000 is more than enough.
This is truly a tragedy but Poland will come out of it stronger. |
actually the pilot ARKADIUSZ PROTASIUK was a military pilot, one of the best polish pilots in afganistan! and on a side note im sure he was not a rookie if he was flying the presidents plane... |
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| gummybear |
| This is a very interesting topic ....thanks for all the insight guys.. |
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
Margs, please do your research next time - Poland only has reported civilian losses of 500,000, as opposed to 14 mil. of Soviets
no military deaths are being reported (from the first glance anyway)
regardless, most of the smaller countries paid the bigger price in that war - Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Ukraine, but are you trying to say that the Nazi rule would have been nicer?
Stalin was known for his atrocities, and oppression of his own people - but I'm not sure what can be done now, 70 years later? |
I did do my research. From many sources. Poland is listed as the most lost lives based on percentage of population.
Right from Wikipedia,
"Over 6 million Polish citizens—nearly 21.4% of Poland's population—died between 1939 and 1945.[3] Over 90% of the death toll came through non-military losses, as most of the civilians were targeted by various deliberate actions by Germans and Soviets.[3]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Poland_(1939%E2%80%931945)
Some other numbers go as low as 16.1 percent but that is still more than Soviets.
I am saying that no rule would be nicer. Why couldn't these countries just leave Poland alone? We got nothing to do with you issues. We were pretty damn happy living out our aristocratic life throughout the ages. lol. Then all these other places want a piece of it.
What can be done after 70 years? How about admitting that Russia wasn't the saviour of the world. How about admitting to war crimes. If the Germans have to still pay renumerations, why doesn't Russia?
EDIT: I took out my Jewish comment because it was taken out of context like every other thing on this board.
This was my subsequent explanation which seemed to have been missed by the circle-jerkers.
| quote: | I didnt mean it as offensive. Poland welcomed the Jews and defended them against everyone. I said it as saying the answer was the Poland was a nice and welcome place for them to stay and live and prosper. The aristocrats needed the Jewish people to come into the country and handle the economic trade and they did it very well.
And this thread has nothing to do with Jews for sure. I am so sorry for bringing it up. The only reason I said something because I was just reading a lot about the history.
I love Jewish people! I didn't mean to offend. |
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| hardcore_barbie |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
I like how Russians seem to think that they saved the world from Germany.
Poland and Polish people have a very different view of Russians. To the rest of the world Russia was saying "we saved the world from Hitler, we are the best, thank us". Meanwhile they thought that they could take Poland and the other Eastern bloc countries as parting gifts setting up Communist governments while the countries were rebuilding after being blown up to . The Allied forces wanted the war over so they turned the other cheek and headed home. Russia has been controlling the Polish government with pay offs and scare tactics since 1945. Holding military presence right outside the biggest cities in Poland until at least the 80s. Always menacing. But this wasn't the first time that Russia has been in control of Poland. They have been salvating over the land since like the 1700 hundreds.
Poland was not a communist country until after the war because of pressures from Russia and since the Allies didn't care, what was Poland supposed to do. They bent over and took it until finally the people were tired of getting ed in the ass by Russia and strong and united enough to take over the government. The action of the Polish people did not only free Poland but many of the other Eastern Bloc countries and eventually Communism in Russia.
Poland has always been in the middle of every damn war that they don't want anything to do with. In World War II, Poland lost the largest percentage of people, so I dunno, who really did lose more of their culture? Poland has always been overtaken, divided and then past back and forth between other countries. Even the damn Swedes wanted a piece of Poland. It's also surprising that Polish people are as civil as they are. There is no mass genocide against other countries, there is no revenge killings, but I don't blame the Poles for being bitter, and not trusting other countries after so many centuries of being ed over. Thank the Catholic Church I guess for giving the Polaks something else to do.
EDIT: lol. I know this has nothing to do with the actual topic of the thread. I know without a doubt that the accident was the cause of the pilot and the people on board telling him to land right away that caused it. But for the sake of the Polish people since they do not trust Russians, Putin should not be "heading the investigation". |
regardless if it has to do with this convo... couldn't have wrote that better myself... it something hard to understand unless you're polish <3 |
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| VDub |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore_barbie
actually the pilot ARKADIUSZ PROTASIUK was a military pilot, one of the best polish pilots in afganistan! and on a side note im sure he was not a rookie if he was flying the presidents plane... |
Again all joking aside, he could not have been that good of a pilot if he couldn't land in a fog (IF like Kris said ILS was present) and he didn't have the intelligence or balls to stand up to whomever gave him a suicide order with the President on board...
Please remember that I am still standing behind the theory that it was pilot error.. |
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| Xavier Moriarty |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
Margs, please do your research next time - Poland only has reported civilian losses of 500,000, as opposed to 14 mil. of Soviets
no military deaths are being reported (from the first glance anyway)
regardless, most of the smaller countries paid the bigger price in that war - Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Ukraine, but are you trying to say that the Nazi rule would have been nicer?
Stalin was known for his atrocities, and oppression of his own people - but I'm not sure what can be done now, 70 years later? |
Russia lost well over 24 million people, 2/3 civilian deaths. if there was no Russia, the official language of the whole europe today would be german. dont let anybody tell you anything else, ever !!
| quote: | | I like how Russians seem to think that they saved the world from Germany. |
who did then??
| quote: | | It is a popular misconception among Americans that the US voluntarily entered WW2, at least against the Germans. In fact, the US didn't. The US entered the general war as a result of the attack on Pearl Harbor. But the US entered against Japan and did not, repeat not, declare war on Germany. However, a few days after Pearl Harbor, Hitler declared war on the US, thereby putting an end to the US dilemma. After a meeting between Churchill and Roosevelt, it was agreed that the British and Americans would have a "Germany first" policy. Whether the Americans would have declared war on Germany had not Hitler made the decision for them is one of the great unanswered questions of history. The US had, of course, been completely isolationist prior to 7 December 1941 - Roosevelt's Lend-Lease program had got through Congress by one, repeat one, vote. The answer is that yes, probably the US would have entered the war against Germany, but possibly not on the scale that it did, and almost certainly not with Germany being given priority over Japan. But nobody will ever know for sure. |
germany broke its back trying to occupy russia and that is a fact!!
| quote: | | actually the pilot ARKADIUSZ PROTASIUK was a military pilot, one of the best polish pilots in afganistan! and on a side note im sure he was not a rookie if he was flying the presidents plane... |
best or worst, he ignored 4 warnings about the fog and he ignored being re-directed to another airport. no matter how you try to spin your Russian hating propaganda you cannot turn a blind eye to the cold, hard facts. whether the pilot made a call himself or was he told by a higher power to ignore all those warnings, human error was a cause for this catastrophe. nothing to do with Russians. |
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| hardcore_barbie |
| quote: | Originally posted by VDub
Again all joking aside, he could not have been that good of a pilot if he couldn't land in a fog (IF like Kris said ILS was present) and he didn't have the intelligence or balls to stand up to whomever gave him a suicide order with the President on board...
Please remember that I am still standing behind the theory that it was pilot error.. |
im just saying... give us polaks some credit. im sure they didnt put some loser to fly that plane lol |
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore_barbie
regardless if it has to do with this convo... couldn't have wrote that better myself... it something hard to understand unless you're polish <3 |
That's why it's scary that the one guy in charge that is PiS (moving towards West) died in the accident. the who is left is way more Russia friendly.
I wish Poland could be in a position that they could tell all sides to off and just be independent but economically they can't. They have to do trade with Western countries but they also have to keep Russia happy cuz guess what happens in a conflict, like every other damn conflict, Poland gets ed.
The turmoil this has caused can really turn the country upside down. I just hope that the Polish people realize that they have to vote and that they really have to listen to the issues. Poland wants to be a strong country. We have a lot of brains to offer. We have great engineers and great intelligent minds but everyone is so bitter. |
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