|
President of Poland and other high-ranking officials killed in plane crash (pg. 23)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by LightsOut
^^
another good book to read to get some valuable insight, from a German perspective, is the Goebbels Diaries (Hitler's Minister of Propaganda). |
this sounds vaguely familiar!
and thanks :) |
|
|
| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by VDub
Until Pearl Harbor, the people didn't think it was worth entering another combat arena that wasn't local...
|
that was my point...
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
...what would have happened if Japanese never attacked Pearl Harbour? would the US have joined the Brits and move onto the continental combat? |
Cookie says yes. I've got to do more reading on this but the more ideas here, the better. |
|
|
| Magnetonium |
Interesting ...
USA was technically already at war before Pearl Harbour attack, because they supplied British and Russians with armaments. They also constantly hassled and intimidated Japs in the Pacific theatre, overshadowing their operations. Americans also helped supply Chinese and others in the fight against Japs. So, they pretty much asked for it, as Imperial Japanese forces made a decision to take out the American navy and remove the threat. They didn't have plans for invasion of Hawaii or the mainland United States. American intelligence probably knew of this impending attack, because not a single Japanese radio code was left unbroken during that war, and conveniently enough, just a day before the attack, main American carriers and ships were out in the ocean on manoeuvres (a coincidence?). Day Of Deceit book points to existing intelligence of Japanese plans. The attack immediately shifted the public support heavily into going to war against Japan. American forces organized, left to look for main Japanese fleet, and after Midway, it was all over.
And D-Day happened because British+Americans didn't want communism over the entire Western Europe. British may have also been hoping that Nazis would stop the Soviets so that they could liberate the entire Europe themselves, but by late 1943 it because obvious the tide has shifted. By then Germans had exhausted their army reserves and were mainly retreating. By the time Allies landed in Normandy in 1944, Soviets were already chasing retreating Nazi troops out into Poland and Germany proper. So much for Americans making a big contribution of WW2.
Japanese were a formidable force in the Pacific theatre mainly because of their fleet, strong logistics and numerical superiority. Soviets defeated them in couple strategic land battles in 1930s in Mongolia, and then again in 1945 after the fall of Berlin. Americans didn't want to lose any more troops so they nuked Japan instead, twice. Like once wasn't enough. Crime against humanity?
Then we have evilcookie in here, who begs to differ on everything we say with rude remarks, claiming Americans did everything and saved everyone in WW2, well, here's a quote out of a comprehensive WW2 history book called "Hitler vs Stalin", http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Versus...n/dp/1842227785
"Between 1941 and 1943, the Vermarcht destroyed almost a third of 570 Soviet rifle divisions. The Red Army destroyed, disabled or captured 607 Axis divisions, at great cost to itself in men and machines: 96,500 tanks, 106,400 aircraft and 317,000 guns. Anglo-American armies fighting in North Africa, Italy and Western Europe destroyed 176 enemy divisions".
Back to Poland discussion? Because this WW2 topic is getting tiring, I think I'm done.
|
|
|
| StereoPrincess |
Another person on the plane was this lady. Shame.
| quote: | Polish freedom icon Anna Walentynowicz dead at 80
WARSAW, Poland
Anna Walentynowicz, a union activist whose 1980 dismissal from a Gdansk shipyard touched off strikes that led to the founding of the Solidarity movement and the eventual toppling of Polish communism, died in the plane crash that devastated the country's elite. She was 80.
Walentynowicz was an anti-communist dissident who worked with Solidarity founder Lech Walesa in the early 1980s to agitate against repressive communist rule. She was close to President Lech Kaczynski, also killed in the Saturday crash. Many others aboard the plane were also their ideological brethren.
Walentynowicz was the most famous Solidarity activist aboard, an iconic figure more closely associated with the 1980 strikes than anyone save Walesa. She had sometimes been referred to as the Rosa Parks of Poland -- a nod to the American woman who was the public face of the American civil rights movement.
A 51-year-old widow and crane operator in 1980, Walentynowicz was only five months away from retirement when her shipyard bosses fired her for producing and distributing a newspaper critical of the regime. She handed some copies directly to her bosses.
Her fellow workers were outraged at the injustice of her firing and agitated to have her reinstated, resistance that led to strikes and sit-ins at the Gdansk shipyard and in factories across the country.
Walesa, who had also been fired for his opposition activism, jumped the walls of the shipyard and returned to his workplace to lead massive strikes.
"I was the drop that caused the cup of bitterness to overflow," she once said, according to the weekly magazine Przekroj.
That protest, which lasted 18 days, resulted in an historic agreement with the communist authorities which gave birth to Eastern Europe's first independent workers' movement. Both Walesa and Walentynowicz were allowed to return to work.
"Anna had been at the center of the events that birthed Solidarity, and along with Lech Walesa she virtually personified the 1980 strikes in the public eye," writes author Shana Penn in "Solidarity's Secret: The Women Who Defeated Communism in Poland."
But it didn't take long for Walentynowicz and the other female activists to be sidelined by Walesa and the other male organizers.
"They ignored her in the next phase," Penn said in a telephone interview Tuesday. "But she didn't go out quietly. She always insisted on (reminding the public) that she played an important role that she still had something to say."
She appeared as herself in director Andrzej Wajda's 1981 acclaimed film about the birth of Solidarity -- "Man of Iron" -- and also served as the inspiration for "Strike," a 2006 fictionalized version of her story made by German director Volker Schloendorff.
Walentynowicz, though the godmother of one of Walesa's eight children, eventually turned against him for personal and idelogical reasons. She felt he took too much credit for himself in the eventually victorious struggle and that he made too many compromises with the communists.
Kaczynski shared her view of Walesa, and the two carried out a very public rivalry.
After Saturday's tragedy Walesa noted that he hadn't spoken to Kaczynski in five years and expressed remorse that he had not reconciled with his one-time allies before their deaths.
"I have to ask God for forgiveness because I made some mistakes and I don't have a clear conscience," Walesa said in televised remarks Sunday.
Walentynowicz was born August 13, 1929, and was 10 years old when Nazi Germany and then the Soviet Union invaded and occupied the country. Her father was killed in the war and she herself fell victim to a Nazi decree that prevented Poles from continuing their education after the fourth grade -- part of an effort by the Nazis to enslave Poles.
She was initially attracted to communism and belonged to the party but eventually became disillusioned with their "lies and manipulation of the workers," Penn said. "She wasn't afraid to expose hypocrites."
When Walentynowicz began her activism at the shipyard she was already widowed and had survived a near-fatal bout of cancer. Her unlikely survival from the illness left her with a sense that she had survived to carry out something worthwhile.
"It took someone like her unafraid of authority to tackle the Communist authorities of the day," said Victor Ashe, a former U.S. ambassador to Poland who said he was honored to have the silver-haired Walentynowicz as a guest as his residence on a number of occasions. "She was an amazing person who continued to express her views actively and directly."
No funeral arrangements have yet been made for Walentynowicz or many of the others killed in the crash. Many of the bodies are still being identified in Russia and most have not yet returned to Poland.
|
There is a bit of Polish history if you guys are interest in that at all in a thread about Poland. |
|
|
| Muff2K |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Interesting ...
USA was technically already at war before Pearl Harbour attack, because they supplied British and Russians with armaments. They also constantly hassled and intimidated Japs in the Pacific theatre, overshadowing their operations. Americans also helped supply Chinese and others in the fight against Japs. So, they pretty much asked for it, as Imperial Japanese forces made a decision to take out the American navy and remove the threat. They didn't have plans for invasion of Hawaii or the mainland United States. American intelligence probably knew of this impending attack, because not a single Japanese radio code was left unbroken during that war, and conveniently enough, just a day before the attack, main American carriers and ships were out in the ocean on manoeuvres (a coincidence?). Day Of Deceit book points to existing intelligence of Japanese plans. The attack immediately shifted the public support heavily into going to war against Japan. American forces organized, left to look for main Japanese fleet, and after Midway, it was all over.
And D-Day happened because British+Americans didn't want communism over the entire Western Europe. British may have also been hoping that Nazis would stop the Soviets so that they could liberate the entire Europe themselves, but by late 1943 it because obvious the tide has shifted. By then Germans had exhausted their army reserves and were mainly retreating. By the time Allies landed in Normandy in 1944, Soviets were already chasing retreating Nazi troops out into Poland and Germany proper. So much for Americans making a big contribution of WW2.
Japanese were a formidable force in the Pacific theatre mainly because of their fleet, strong logistics and numerical superiority. Soviets defeated them in couple strategic land battles in 1930s in Mongolia, and then again in 1945 after the fall of Berlin. Americans didn't want to lose any more troops so they nuked Japan instead, twice. Like once wasn't enough. Crime against humanity?
Then we have evilcookie in here, who begs to differ on everything we say with rude remarks, claiming Americans did everything and saved everyone in WW2, well, here's a quote out of a comprehensive WW2 history book called "Hitler vs Stalin", http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Versus...n/dp/1842227785
"Between 1941 and 1943, the Vermarcht destroyed almost a third of 570 Soviet rifle divisions. The Red Army destroyed, disabled or captured 607 Axis divisions, at great cost to itself in men and machines: 96,500 tanks, 106,400 aircraft and 317,000 guns. Anglo-American armies fighting in North Africa, Italy and Western Europe destroyed 176 enemy divisions".
Back to Poland discussion? Because this WW2 topic is getting tiring, I think I'm done.
|
Phil I can't believe you're still alive.
Aside from my personal bias towards the whole tragedy - it is what it is - a tragedy. It could have happened to any country flying it`s officials on cheap planes. The irony of the situation overall will lead people to point fingers. The Poles want answers.
The Polish people are very proud and this will only make them stronger. |
|
|
| VDub |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
that was my point...
|
Don't twist my meaning...
The US was already VERY MUCH involved...
The CITIZENS didn't want to actually fight until they were attacked... |
|
|
| Xavier Moriarty |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
I edited out my Jewish comment because everything is taken out of context on this board especially at a circle-jerking party that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
This was my explanation of my Jewish comment but which seemed to have been missed by the love-fest. |
awwwww, princess is upset. you missing your own circle jerk parties when everybody used to agree with you??
be an adult and man up to your mistake, dont try an give me an explanation for it that makes no sense whatsoever.
of all people, you two making fun of other people agreeing and calling it a circle jerk?? i'd lol if it wasnt so ed up and depressing!!! |
|
|
| evil_cookie |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Interesting ...
USA was technically already at war before Pearl Harbour attack, because they supplied British and Russians with armaments. They also constantly hassled and intimidated Japs in the Pacific theatre, overshadowing their operations. Americans also helped supply Chinese and others in the fight against Japs. So, they pretty much asked for it, as Imperial Japanese forces made a decision to take out the American navy and remove the threat. They didn't have plans for invasion of Hawaii or the mainland United States. American intelligence probably knew of this impending attack, because not a single Japanese radio code was left unbroken during that war, and conveniently enough, just a day before the attack, main American carriers and ships were out in the ocean on manoeuvres (a coincidence?). Day Of Deceit book points to existing intelligence of Japanese plans. The attack immediately shifted the public support heavily into going to war against Japan. American forces organized, left to look for main Japanese fleet, and after Midway, it was all over.
And D-Day happened because British+Americans didn't want communism over the entire Western Europe. British may have also been hoping that Nazis would stop the Soviets so that they could liberate the entire Europe themselves, but by late 1943 it because obvious the tide has shifted. By then Germans had exhausted their army reserves and were mainly retreating. By the time Allies landed in Normandy in 1944, Soviets were already chasing retreating Nazi troops out into Poland and Germany proper. So much for Americans making a big contribution of WW2.
Japanese were a formidable force in the Pacific theatre mainly because of their fleet, strong logistics and numerical superiority. Soviets defeated them in couple strategic land battles in 1930s in Mongolia, and then again in 1945 after the fall of Berlin. Americans didn't want to lose any more troops so they nuked Japan instead, twice. Like once wasn't enough. Crime against humanity?
Then we have evilcookie in here, who begs to differ on everything we say with rude remarks, claiming Americans did everything and saved everyone in WW2, well, here's a quote out of a comprehensive WW2 history book called "Hitler vs Stalin", http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Versus...n/dp/1842227785
"Between 1941 and 1943, the Vermarcht destroyed almost a third of 570 Soviet rifle divisions. The Red Army destroyed, disabled or captured 607 Axis divisions, at great cost to itself in men and machines: 96,500 tanks, 106,400 aircraft and 317,000 guns. Anglo-American armies fighting in North Africa, Italy and Western Europe destroyed 176 enemy divisions".
Back to Poland discussion? Because this WW2 topic is getting tiring, I think I'm done.
|
I can't take you seriously.
First, as someone who doesn't know the fundamental difference between freedom of expression and freedom of thought; you shouldn't partake in this discussion.
Second, I can cite all of the websites where you plagiarized most of the non-sense you posted--you didn't even paraphrase, most of quotes are verbatim! Better yet, I invite others to copy and paste random sections of your post in Google.
Third, I like that quote. In fact, this isn't the first time you're using it is it? Looks like you used a while ago in a similar discussion on TA:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...47&referrerid=2
Is that the only quote you have? Have you even read this book? I have read this book, in fact, it's sitting on my shelf right behind me. Feel free to refer me to pages you think are relevant in substantiating your point. I'm waiting.
Finally, where did I say "Americans did everything and saved everyone in WW2?" Because I recall saying:
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_cookie
the first nation you should be thanking is the USA.
|
Which only means, that the USA contributed the most--not everything. And as such, they deserve to be rightfully credited. To this end, I have also cited numerous historians that are in agreement with me. You have cited Erickson's book, which I have read and cannot for the life of me locate where he suggests that it was the Russians and not the Americans who contributed the most in ending WWII.
But please, if you've read the book, and you're using it to support your case; you're probably seeing something I'm not. I'm waiting for page numbers/passages.
Otherwise, and I think you should really consider this advice. Move along, and stay off of Wikipedia. |
|
|
| StereoPrincess |
Obama is going to the funeral on April 17th.
That's great. :)
| quote: | Obama to Poland for funeral
Posted: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 4:05 PM by Mark Murray
Filed Under: White House, Barack Obama
From NBC's Mark Murray
The White House has announced that President Obama will fly to Poland to attend the state funeral of Lech Kaczynski, who passed away in that tragic plane crash over the weekend.
The White House statement:
On Saturday evening, the President will travel to Krakow, Poland to attend the State Funeral of President Lech Kaczynski and First Lady Maria Kaczynska on Sunday, April 18th. The President will travel to Krakow to express the depth of our condolences to an important and trusted ally, and our support for the Polish people, on behalf of the American people.
|
|
|
|
| FunkyCrew |
| is Harper going too, or he doesn't have a clue this even happened? |
|
|
| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
is Harper going too, or he doesn't have a clue this even happened? |
lol.
but he is going. |
|
|
| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
lol.
but he is going. |
that's good though
I'm guessing the Ukie guy is going too (he better be at least!) |
|
|
|
|
