Originally posted by bluE_Neon
The Russian government will cover up any necessary facts, modify the black box and release to Polacy later. Typical Russian old stab you in the back style.
wow.
hit_it
"The pilot had over 3000 hours in the air. He was 36 years old"
Can anyone who knows a little about planes tell me if 3000 hours in the air for a pilot is a lot or not that many. For me it seems like he wasn't experienced enough. 3000 hr and 36 years old? That for me seems like a rookie, let a lone captain of a presidential plane. But then again, I'm not an expert, maybe 3000 is more than enough.
This is truly a tragedy but Poland will come out of it stronger.
geroin
quote:
Originally posted by bluE_Neon
The Russian government will cover up any necessary facts, modify the black box and release to Polacy later. Typical Russian old stab you in the back style.
I've been watching Russian news channels these past few days and the whole topic has been on the news all day. What you are saying is complete bull, stop talking out of your ass. When a catastrophe of such magnitude takes place in the country it is normal for the prime minister to take charge of the investigation. Polish government is given full access, black boxes were opened with polish officials present to make sure no modification (like you are saying) takes place. There are 11 polish officials that went to Moscow to jointly investigate the cause and check black boxes. Russians don't hate polish people, every single person in the country is shocked and saddened by these events, people from Moscow and around the area are calling in to hotlines trying to offer their help, provide free language translation services, leaving flowers etc etc. All relatives were given free flight, transportation, hotel stay no questions asked.
also
"Kaczyński had not been invited to the joint Russian-Polish event that had happened three days earlier, which was attended by the Prime Ministers of Poland and Russia. In August 2008, the pilot of Kaczyński's plane was threatened with dismissal when he refused to land in Tbilisi during the South Ossetian war between Georgia and Russia.[39]"
geroin
quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium
Why? The answer is on the same link of yours.
If Putin does go all the way with opening all archives, issue official apology and basically taking personal blame, he will open a huge can of worms for many other Stalin's crimes to be dealt with, as a precedent, i.e. "Why did Putin apologize for Katyn but not for hundreds of other Stalin's crimes?". They would rather accept that Stalin did commit all these crimes, wrap them together ("victims of totalitarian regimes"), acknowledge they happened, build memorials for each, heal wounds and carry on. ESPECIALLY separate them from Soviet contributions in WW2 in defeating Nazi Germany, in which Russians paid a heavy price and contributed significantly to the defeat of Nazi Germany, a huge sacrifice. Otherwise, countries and groups will start asking for compensation, international declarations, and so on. It's a very sensitive issue, and Russians probably feel like they are being asked too much, considering the Soviet past and how it may still harm its image today. Opening the dark archives may make this political situation worse, and it will further place a bigger shadow on Soviet contributions in World War II.
Soviets already tried with opening archives previously on Kholodomor, and that turned so bad for them that it has been recognized as genocide against Ukrainian people by several countries. Altough many ethnic Russians starved to death there, too. I had a distant relative lost in that famine - I hail from a Cossack lineage, and the world community doesnt care that communists took up a genocidal campaign against us! Because everyone is too busy concerned only about themselves, and everyone is forgetting that many Russian people were senselessly slaughtered by the monstrous Stalinist regime. So it is very hurtful and insulting for people like me to hear Kholodomor considered as more significant or more special, a genocide against Ukrainian people, who feel like they more entitled compared to other victims.
Thats why Jews are disliked in Eastern Europe, because in many instances of the Holocaust ordinary Soviet citizens were gassed and mass-executed together with Jewish people (how can people forget that Hitler ran a campaign of extermination against Slavs!), but Holocaust was labeled as exclusively Jewish struggle. At least thats what people get the impression from, in the media, movies and education systems.
I lost many family members to all those awful Soviet crimes, lost my way of life, tradition, home. But noone speaks for me. Not even Putin, who has to speak for Katyn first, because international political relations are more important (especially regional).
your posts have been very interesting and on the dot, thank you.
geroin
Address to the People of Poland
PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA DMITRY MEDVEDEV: Dear friends, dear citizens of the Republic of Poland.
I and all citizens of Russia are shocked by the terrible tragedy that occurred, the death of the President of the Republic of Poland Lech Kaczynski, his wife Maria, and all Polish citizens on board the plane that crashed near Smolensk.
These days we have been holding joint commemorative events at Katyn and together we grieved for the victims of the totalitarian past. Lech Kaczynski flew to Russia to personally pay tribute to the perished Polish officers both as President and as their fellow citizen.
All Russians share your grief and mourning. I promise that all the circumstances of this tragedy will be investigated with utmost care in close collaboration with the Polish authorities. I have given comprehensive orders to this effect to law enforcement agencies.
On behalf of the people of Russia, I want to express my deepest, most heartfelt condolences to the people of Poland, and my empathy and support to families and friends of the victims. Monday April 12, 2010 will be declared a national day of mourning in Russia.
D.MIEDWIEDIEW: Drodzy przyjaciele. Szanowni obywatele Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej.
Ja i wszyscy obywatele Rosji jesteśmy głęboko wstrząśnięci straszną tragedią - śmiercią Prezydenta Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej Lecha Kaczyńskiego, jego żony Marii i wszystkich obywateli polskich, którzy znajdowali się na pokładzie rozbitego samolotu.
W ostatnich dniach wspólnie organizowaliśmy uroczystości rocznicowe w Katyniu, razem składaliśmy hołd ofiarom totalitaryzmu. Lech Kaczyński leciał do Rosji, aby osobiście oddać cześć pamięci zabitych polskich oficerów jako Prezydent, a także jako obywatel swojego kraju. Wszyscy Rosjanie łączą się z wami w cierpieniu i żałobie. Obiecuję, że okoliczności tej tragedii zostaną jak najdokładniej zbadane w ścisłej współpracy ze stroną polską. Organy ścigania otrzymały ode mnie wyczerpujące instrukcje.
W imieniu narodu rosyjskiego składam najgłębsze i najszczersze wyrazy współczucia narodowi polskiemu, przekazując także wyrazy solidarności i wsparcia rodzinom i bliskim ofiar. W poniedziałek 12 kwietnia w Rosji zostanie ogłoszona żałoba narodowa.
Xavier Moriarty
quote:
Originally posted by geroin
I've been watching Russian news channels these past few days and the whole topic has been on the news all day. What you are saying is complete bull, stop talking out of your ass. When a catastrophe of such magnitude takes place in the country it is normal for the prime minister to take charge of the investigation. Polish government is given full access, black boxes were opened with polish officials present to make sure no modification (like you are saying) takes place. There are 11 polish officials that went to Moscow to jointly investigate the cause and check black boxes. Russians don't hate polish people, every single person in the country is shocked and saddened by these events, people from Moscow and around the area are calling in to hotlines trying to offer their help, provide free language translation services, leaving flowers etc etc. All relatives were given free flight, transportation, hotel stay no questions asked.
also
"Kaczyński had not been invited to the joint Russian-Polish event that had happened three days earlier, which was attended by the Prime Ministers of Poland and Russia. In August 2008, the pilot of Kaczyński's plane was threatened with dismissal when he refused to land in Tbilisi during the South Ossetian war between Georgia and Russia.[39]"
its amazing how some people are willing to ignore all the facts and come up with this conspiracy theories.
i am OFFICIALLY speechless !!!!
VDub
I really think that it's a simple case of a stupid pilot in a hunk of junk plane getting a bunch of ppl killed...
VDub
quote:
Originally posted by hit_it
"The pilot had over 3000 hours in the air. He was 36 years old"
Can anyone who knows a little about planes tell me if 3000 hours in the air for a pilot is a lot or not that many. For me it seems like he wasn't experienced enough. 3000 hr and 36 years old? That for me seems like a rookie, let a lone captain of a presidential plane. But then again, I'm not an expert, maybe 3000 is more than enough.
This is truly a tragedy but Poland will come out of it stronger.
3000 hrs, over here, is what you need to get your commercial license...
That's not to fly a frickin jetliner. Thats just to start working as a pilot and usually in a puddle jumper flying a Beaver or something small..
This dude should definately not have been flying that plane and with a damn President on board...
And FYI, all of Air Force One's pilots have been at the rank of Colonel and had decades of flight experience...
FunkyCrew
quote:
Originally posted by VDub
I really think that it's a simple case of a stupid pilot in a hunk of junk plane getting a bunch of ppl killed...
Nick, can you please stop talking out of your ass already? I think it was already established loud and clear that the state of the plane had nothing to do with the crash, unless otherwise stated :rolleyes:
the pilot was MOST probably ordered by the President to coordinators in Smolensk, regardless of the instructions from the land
seriously guys, grow up!
VDub
quote:
Originally posted by FunkyCrew
Nick, can you please stop talking out of your ass already? I think it was already established loud and clear that the state of the plane had nothing to do with the crash, unless otherwise stated :rolleyes:
the pilot was MOST probably ordered by the President to coordinators in Smolensk, regardless of the instructions from the land
seriously guys, grow up!
Again Kris I'm not going to argue with you about the aircraft because it's like talking to a kid about rocked science but I can assure you that I am not talking out of my ass...
As for the pilot, yes it's his fault that they crashed. Nobody can order a pilot in that situation to make an unsafe landing...
Why are you so defensive about that damn plane?? Do you have relatives who were part of the design team or something???
You know, there's a reason that it's been nicknamed the Flying Coffin...
Xavier Moriarty
quote:
Originally posted by VDub
Again Kris I'm not going to argue with you about the aircraft because it's like talking to a kid about rocked science but I can assure you that I am not talking out of my ass...
As for the pilot, yes it's his fault that they crashed. Nobody can order a pilot in that situation to make an unsafe landing...
Why are you so defensive about that damn plane?? Do you have relatives who were part of the design team or something???
You know, there's a reason that it's been nicknamed the Flying Coffin...
lol, im pretty sure you've misread her post.
VDub
I wish you didn't quote because I wanted to edit the kid rocket science bit. I appologize for being condescending Kris. I'm just a little bothered by someone arguing so much with me about a subject that I'm very passionate about.
I've already conceded to the point that it was pilot error that caused this crash. Not entirely the aircraft's fault. Although if there was an ILS present, they wouldve been able to land in this fog...
