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President of Poland and other high-ranking officials killed in plane crash (pg. 14)
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
I'm not trying to measure e-penises here at the expense of our dead relatives lol
all I'm saying that WWII is more just a history chapter for our family. |
hey hey. you are the one that brought it up. :) i didn't say any stories.
i agree that WWII was more than a 1 hour TV special for many millions of people not just your family. |
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
THANK YOU!
bang on, my words exactly - rolling in his grave (my grandfather in my case)
Lithuania and Estonia are the worst atm - they are completely eradicating any signs of Soviet presence, memorials turn down, veterans presecuted for wearing their medals on May 9th, etc etc |
What nationality are you? |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
hey hey. you are the one that brought it up. :) i didn't say any stories.
i agree that WWII was more than a 1 hour TV special for many millions of people not just your family. |
at least we agree somewhere, lol :) |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
What nationality are you? |
Ukrainian, why?
techically I was born as a citizen of Soviet Union |
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Obviously it wasnt just the Russians who defeated Nazi Germany. But you got to understand this - if Hitler won, he would have eradicated all Slavs, including mine and your predecessors. |
When did I say that I wanted Hitler to win? I definitely did not say that.
| quote: | | Stalin was the lesser of the two evils, he wasnt interested in eradicating countries to fullfill some 'pure German' scheme. |
No one knows what the that psycho was thinking.
| quote: | | In that sense, you have to admit that Stalin re-invading Poland from Hitler was the best thing that could have happened to Poland. |
I will never admit that cuz that's crazytalk!
| quote: | | You didnt expect that Allies would give a about Poland, like they would sacrifice any more of their troops to attack Soviet Union? They were too busily handing over everything on a platter to Stalin, including hundreds of thousands of people who seeked asylum from Allies, but were instead given to Stalin for mass executions and torture. Allies played their part in war crimes as a result. |
I said exactly that. Since the Allies left and didn't give a . Poland's options were to fight Russia on their own or bend over and take it. After all the military and intellectual people were killed in Katyn.
| quote: | | AND, you are completely forgeting the Yalta conference of 1945. Poland received GENEROUSLY many former German lands east of Oder river, and huge chunks of former East Prussia. Millions of Germans were resettled from lands that Poland happily accepted. Poland may have lived under Soviet ego for half a century, but Polska culture survived and is stronger today. |
Generously? hahahaha. It's the least they could do.
| quote: | | Remember in World War II, how Polish people were considered already as "inferior culture" and second-class citizens by the Nazis? For example, on a bus, Germans has special areas reserved for 'Germans Only', and Poles got only the ty spots in the back. Once he was gonna finish with Jews and the Russians, he would have started with Polish people too. |
Russia treated us like too. See every war EVER.
| quote: | | In a way, many of these former Soviet republics are very ungrateful. |
Poland isn't a Soviet Republic. It's Poland. They didn't want to be associated with Russia.
| quote: | | My great-grand-grandfather is probably rolling in his grave, because he died for nothing (he died liberating Baltic countries). Today, in Latvia there are annual Nazi parades! |
I am sorry for the death of your family. I would never promote Nazi parades but I would definitely not promote Stalin parades either.
| quote: | No, Poland was actually quite communist by the end of WW2. Why?
a) Soviets executed most of the nationalists in Katyn and elsewhere;
b) Remaining nationalists were mostly destroyed by Nazis during the famous Warsaw uprising by the Poles, who wanted to liberate their own capital (as Soviet troops stood on the other side of the river and waited). Pro-Soviet Poles were too busily getting groomed by the Soviets, or running over to Soviet lines.
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I said that Poland wasn't Communist before the war. Obviously Russia during the war guranteed that they would become Communists by exactly the thing you mentioned. Killing and buying out Polish people.
| quote: | | If you're looking back further than 1920, then you have to understand that back then it was the age of autocratic empires. Every single dam piece of land somewhere was contested by some empire, be it the Russians, Habsburg, German, Prussian, Russian, Austro-Hungarian, British, etc. Poland would have been controlled by one empire or another. In fact, several empires actually played hand-in-hand carving Poland between each other, it wasnt just the Russians. |
Yup. That is true. And that's why Poland is so untrusting of many other countries around itself. Being passed back and forth isn't fun at all.
| quote: | | Here's one big reason why you SHOULD trust Putin on this one. In Russia, there is so much corruption, bureaucracy and ignorance, that most of the times the only way things get done properly and fairly is when Putin takes charge or notices the situation. If you gave this investigation to some dimwhit from Smolensk, it could cause a national disaster for Russia if it was done poorly, it may take forever, etc. etc. Putin will get this job done, properly, and he has no bias against Polish people - otherwise he wouldn't be opening the Katyn memorial in the first place. |
Hee hee. This was funny. Even if Poland SHOULD trust him, they are not going to.
By the way, some of the points you make, I can't figure out where you are from either. |
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| StereoPrincess |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
Ukrainian, why?
techically I was born as a citizen of Soviet Union |
hmm. interesting.
i really know nothing of Russian-Ukrainian relations but I just assumed that they didn't get along. Particularily when Ukraine wants to join NATO and Russia is having a hissy fit over it. But that is my own bias. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
When did I say that I wanted Hitler to win? I definitely did not say that.
No one knows what the that psycho was thinking.
I will never admit that cuz that's crazytalk!
I said exactly that. Since the Allies left and didn't give a . Poland's options were to fight Russia on their own or bend over and take it. After all the military and intellectual people were killed in Katyn.
Generously? hahahaha. It's the least they could do.
Russia treated us like too. See every war EVER.
Poland isn't a Soviet Republic. It's Poland. They didn't want to be associated with Russia.
I am sorry for the death of your family. I would never promote Nazi parades but I would definitely not promote Stalin parades either.
I said that Poland wasn't Communist before the war. Obviously Russia during the war guranteed that they would become Communists by exactly the thing you mentioned. Killing and buying out Polish people.
Yup. That is true. And that's why Poland is so untrusting of many other countries around itself. Being passed back and forth isn't fun at all.
Hee hee. This was funny. Even if Poland SHOULD trust him, they are not going to.
By the way, some of the points you make, I can't figure out where you are from either. |
Well, then, we agree on some things. Sometimes if you think it through, and let go of nationalist sentiments, things make more sense. Been there, done that. This is isn't some anti-Poland conspiracy, I doubt that the Russians wanted those senior Polish officials dead. If anything, they're worried as hell that things are going to get worse now politically. Russia needs Poland, just as much as Poland needs Russia. Putin wants friendly relations and economic partnership and no American military presence, while Poland wants Russian resources and market for its own argriculture :)
Oh, where I am from? I am from Canada! :toothless |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
hmm. interesting.
i really know nothing of Russian-Ukrainian relations but I just assumed that they didn't get along. Particularily when Ukraine wants to join NATO and Russia is having a hissy fit over it. But that is my own bias. |
Ukrainians and Russians are technically the same peoples. Russian history started in Kiev, in 800s, as Kievan Rus'.
Later, as you read history, things got divided, moved around, borders shifted. Mongol invasion of Muscovy and its lands coupled with Kievan fall to Poland and Lithuania. The latter then converted the Orthodox Kievans into Catholicism, and the rest is history. Oh, its ironic, but one of the main factors for Russia-Ukraine division was Poland and Lithuania!
EDIT: Same with Belarus, it was never a nation. Belarussian language is mostly a mix between Lithuanian and Russian languages, with some Polish influence. |
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| infinity HiGH |
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...lane-crash.html
| quote: | 'VIP passenger syndrome' may have contributed to Polish plane crash
Russian aviation experts claimed that "VIP passenger syndrome" could have played a part in causing of the tragedy, as it was disclosed that Lech Kaczynski had previously tried to sack a pilot who refused to land a plane for him in dangerous circumstances.
Black box recordings have confirmed that the pilot, Arkadiusz Protasiuk, an experience airman serving with the Polish air force, had ignored warnings to divert to another airport because of heavy fog.
However, it has been suggested that Mr Kaczynski did not want to miss a ceremony for the 22,000 Poles massacred by Soviet forces in the Second World War and may have urged the air crew to continue trying to land the plane.
Viktor Timoshkin, an aviation expert, said: "It was quite obviously 'VIP passenger syndrome'. Controllers suggested that the aircraft's crew divert the plane to an alternate route. I am sure that the commander of the crew reported this to the president. But in response, for whatever reasons, he had a clear order to land."
In August 2008, Mr Kaczynski "shouted furiously" at a pilot who had disobeyed his order to land his plane in then war-torn Georgia for safety reasons. He later tried to have Captain Grzegorz Pietuczak removed from his post with the Polish air force for insubordination, however, Donald Tusk, the Prime Minister intervened. Captain Pietuczak was later awarded a medal for carrying out his duties conscientiously for his refusal to land having judged the risks.
A Russian aviation expert said yesterday: "If he tried to land three times and fell on the fourth then he probably had the 2008 incident in mind and that was why he felt he had to land at any price. In effect, he did not take the decision but the main passenger on board did - even if the main passenger did not utter a word to the pilot."
Andrzej Seremet, Poland's chief prosecutor, said that there was no information from the investigation so far to suggest that Mr Kaczynski had put undue pressure on the pilot.
A senior air traffic controller at the Russian airport where the Polish plane was trying to land stirred controversy by suggesting that the Polish pilots' poor knowledge of the Russian language was to blame.
"They were supposed to give us a report about their altitude on the approach to landing," he said. "They did not give it." When asked why, he said: "Because they have a bad command of the Russian language. There were Russian speakers among them but for them numbers were quite complex."
It came as tensions between Russia and Poland over the air crash were escalated when a Polish MP claimed the Kremlin was partly to blame for the tragedy.
The two countries have set aside centuries of mutual distrust to present a united and recrimination-free front but yesterday Artur Gorski, a member of the Law and Justice party founded by Mr Kaczynski, said that Russia may have tried to deliberately prevent Mr Kaczynski's plane from landing and thereby indirectly caused his death.
Mr Gorski said: "One version of events says that the plane approached the airport four times, because every time the Russians refused it permission to land; they wanted to send the plane with the president to an airport in Moscow or Minsk,
"They came up with some dubious reasons: that there was fog over the airport, that the navigation system didn't work as it was under repair, and that the airport had a short landing strip."
Mr Gorski suggested that the real reason Moscow did not want President Kaczynski to land was because he was due to attend a ceremony marking the 70th anniversary of an infamous Soviet massacre of Polish officers.
The Russians, he claimed, did not want Mr Kaczynski to upstage a similar event hosted by Vladimir Putin, the Russian prime minister, a few days earlier.
The Kremlin may also have feared that the Polish president, a noted hawk when it came to Russia, may have planned to criticise Moscow for not issuing a proper apology for the 1940 massacre, he added.
Mr Putin, who has taken charge of the investigation into the air crash, which is being carried out by both Russian and Polish teams, yesterday promised an "objective and thorough" investigation.
Bronislaw Komorowski, Poland's acting head of state, has announced an immediate review of regulations, or the lack of them, governing just which political and military leaders can fly together. The air crash was carrying nine senior military leaders, as well as the governor of Poland's central bank. |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
hmm. interesting.
i really know nothing of Russian-Ukrainian relations but I just assumed that they didn't get along. Particularily when Ukraine wants to join NATO and Russia is having a hissy fit over it. But that is my own bias. |
why would I care what our corrupted politicians have in mind? :) Russians are always brothers and sisters in my mind - my first language IS Russian
politically, the countries do not get along - the stealing of the Russian natural gas was a huge embarrasement not so long ago, for example
but the people tend to be friendly to each other for the most part
but during WW2 the countries all fought together - we were not independent then, we were just a Ukrainian Soviet State (USSR) |
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| Sasha |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
EDIT: Same with Belarus, it was never a nation. Belarussian language is mostly a mix between Lithuanian and Russian languages, with some Polish influence. |
Lithuanian? not even close. |
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| rabbitjoker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Putin wants friendly relations and economic partnership |
You make Putin's intentions sound so nice, when they are hardly that.
Putin wants to meddle and intimidate former communist states into co-operation (which really is giving in to Russian demands). |
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