|
President of Poland and other high-ranking officials killed in plane crash (pg. 15)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sasha
Lithuanian? not even close. |
Perhaps not Lithuanian, as that is a very unique language in itself, but Polish influence nevertheless. I gotta read about Belarussian language again sometime, there was a good source online somewhere a while back.
For me, Ukrainian is easier to understand than Belarussian language ;) |
|
|
| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by rabbitjoker
You make Putin's intentions sound so nice, when they are hardly that.
Putin wants to meddle and intimidate former communist states into co-operation (which really is giving in to Russian demands). |
No, the problem is the United States. Putin is concerned about NATO expansion to Russia's borders, and he has a good case. Cold War is long gone, while NATO is still expanding - and it is a military bloc. NATO supplied Georgia with military hardware and training which culminated in South Ossetian conflict. Only an idiot would assume that Pentagon didnt know that Saakashvilli was going to launch an attack on Russian peacekeeper barracks in South Ossetian capital. Hence a solid case for Russian distrust of United States.
USA is building military bases, missile silos, bringing more troops near Russian borders and that concerns Moscow. Why would they do that anyway, arent they supposed to be allies, and fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Its all part of American global campaign of domination, a modern egoistic selfish empire, there's a reason why United States has a military presence in over 100 countries around the world. Including such redundant places as Japan.
Russia wants to be a player in its own backyard and has a say in world affairs, while United States wants to isolate Russia for generations to come. That can weaken Russia's economic and political potential.
Don't worry about Russian invasions. Why? Because Moscow doesnt want another empire to pay for (the reason why Soviet Union collapsed without a conflict), it wants friendly neighbour states and good relations, similar to what US has. It works better like that. You see, if Poland wasn't divided between Nazi Germany and Soviet Union, there might have not been a conflict between Stalin and Hitler because of the buffer state in between. And also, empires require a lot of money and resources to pay for, and Soviet Union went bankrupt. Now United States is feeling the pinch, under similar circumstances.
|
|
|
| rabbitjoker |
| ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ - I disagree entirely (and am too busy with other things to respond further). |
|
|
| Kamka |
| quote: | | Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty |
quote: I like how Russians seem to think that they saved the world from Germany.
who did then?? [/QUOTE]
| quote: | Originally posted by Sasha
Who was the saviour then? Poland? USA? Canada?
please enlighten me. |
The country that I was born in, CZECHOSLOVAKIA, was the first country to stand up to Hitler, it was the FIRST sovereign independent country to be threatened by Hitler and the Nazi Germany!! They were threatened by him before anyone else was, they stood up to him before anyone else did! They tried to stop his expansionist policies and territorial demands before the second world war even started!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_agreement
And what happened after this farce? I have a Czech grandmother, who was born in 1937, so she was about 1 year old at the time. She and her family, two older sisters and her parents, lived in the Czech town of Mikulov, near the Austrian border (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikulov), where her father was the manager of a local post-office. My grandma told me that at the time that Sudetenland was seceded to the Third Reich, the Czech government asked all "patriotic government employees", to retain their posts and refuse to leave ,as a sign of objection to the incoming occupying Third Reich forces. This was done on a voluntary basis, by those who wanted. My Czech great-grandfather, who was the manager of a local post-office in Mikulov, decided to stay and thus show his opposition. He was promptly arrested, and then taken to a German labour camp (I'm guessing somewhere in the territory of the Third Reich), where was held as a prisoner for over a year. During the first few months, my great-grandma, his wife, received letters from him once in a while, but after a while, all the letters stopped, and not being able to obtain any news about her husband, she just assumed that he was dead. Eventually as the labour camp started filling up with people (maybe Jews, or others, who were held higher on the 'undesirable' scale than some rebellious Czechs), they started to run out of space, so they apparently decided to free my great-grandfather and just send him back home on his own. So, without any prior news, he arrived home one night, in the middle of the night, and knocked on the windows of the house to be let in... my great-grandma, who was a very religious woman, was certain by that time that he was dead and when she suddenly saw him again out of nowhere in the middle of the night, she at first refused to open the door to him because she thought that it's his ghost knocking!! (Eventually however, she did let him in). And now this begs the question, what did Stalin and the Soviet politbyro do when the ethnic Germans were shouting Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer to welcome the tanks of the German army that was entering into what was then left of Bohemia in the March of 1939? What were they preparing for? This:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact (Where again is that picture where Stalin and Hitler are shaking hands and smiling at each other at their division of Poland? It must be out there somewhere)
My Czech great-grandfather showed resistance to the Nazis by voluntarily showing allegiance to his own sinking country long before Stalin and his croonies even went to bed with Hitler and his compatriots for Stalin's own geopolitical gain!! |
|
|
| hardcore_barbie |
the reason why our president wanted to land in the capital of georgia, in tbilisi at all cost is because the russians were invading it... him along with 4 other presidents landed there & the russians stopped 100 km from the capital... |
|
|
| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kamka
quote: I like how Russians seem to think that they saved the world from Germany.
who did then??
The country that I was born in, CZECHOSLOVAKIA, was the first country to stand up to Hitler, it was the FIRST sovereign independent country to be threatened by Hitler and the Nazi Germany!! They were threatened by him before anyone else was, they stood up to him before anyone else did! They tried to stop his expansionist policies and territorial demands before the second world war even started!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_agreement
And what happened after this farce? I have a Czech grandmother, who was born in 1937, so she was about 1 year old at the time. She and her family, two older sisters and her parents, lived in the Czech town of Mikulov, near the Austrian border (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikulov), where her father was the manager of a local post-office. My grandma told me that at the time that Sudetenland was seceded to the Third Reich, the Czech government asked all "patriotic government employees", to retain their posts and refuse to leave ,as a sign of objection to the incoming occupying Third Reich forces. This was done on a voluntary basis, by those who wanted. My Czech great-grandfather, who was the manager of a local post-office in Mikulov, decided to stay and thus show his opposition. He was promptly arrested, and then taken to a German labour camp (I'm guessing somewhere in the territory of the Third Reich), where was held as a prisoner for over a year. During the first few months, my great-grandma, his wife, received letters from him once in a while, but after a while, all the letters stopped, and not being able to obtain any news about her husband, she just assumed that he was dead. Eventually as the labour camp started filling up with people (maybe Jews, or others, who were held higher on the 'undesirable' scale than some rebellious Czechs), they started to run out of space, so they apparently decided to free my great-grandfather and just send him back home on his own. So, without any prior news, he arrived home one night, in the middle of the night, and knocked on the windows of the house to be let in... my great-grandma, who was a very religious woman, was certain by that time that he was dead and when she suddenly saw him again out of nowhere in the middle of the night, she at first refused to open the door to him because she thought that it's his ghost knocking!! (Eventually however, she did let him in). And now this begs the question, what did Stalin and the Soviet politbyro do when the ethnic Germans were shouting Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer to welcome the tanks of the German army that was entering into what was then left of Bohemia in the March of 1939? What were they preparing for? This:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact (Where again is that picture where Stalin and Hitler are shaking hands and smiling at each other at their division of Poland? It must be out there somewhere)
My Czech great-grandfather showed resistance to the Nazis by voluntarily showing allegiance to his own sinking country long before Stalin and his croonies even went to bed with Hitler and his compatriots for Stalin's own geopolitical gain!! |
Thanks for the input, thats a great story.
Geopolitically speaking, there are many ways things could have played out differently. On one hand, if the Red Army didn't lose to Poland in 1920, then Hitler might not have risen to lead his nation. Why? Because without the buffer state of Poland in between, Soviets would have been easily able to supply and support German communists who rose up in couple uprisings to fight the Nazi party in Berlin and other German cities, but failed. There are actually still monuments standing on some East German cities in memory of these early German communist heroes. Nazis then solidified power, and the rest is history. Interesting to note, that American industrialists have played a role in helping Nazis rise to power, with money and technology, business (there are famous photos of IBM chairman meeting with Hitler).
On the other hand, as I stated in my previous post, if Stalin refused to partition Poland and left the buffer state in between, Nazis would not be able to attack Soviet Union directly, or at least they would need to invade at a much later date, when Soviet would be better prepared. Without the buffer states, Stalin exposed his flank to a possible Blitzkrieg onslaught over a WIDE front.
The reasons why your Czechoslovakia was invaded was because of the lame Western act of appeasement. And Soviet ignorance. But it goes much more complicated than this, it should go to a separate WW2 thread :)
As for the topic, this is good news:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8615945.stm
| quote: |
Russia-Poland thaw grows from tragedy
Russian-Polish relations have often been difficult, but Moscow's dignified handling of the aftermath of the tragic plane crash which killed Polish President Lech Kaczynski has been well received by Poles.
Poles have been somewhat taken aback by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's decision to personally oversee the investigation of the crash which killed all 96 people on board, tearing a hole in the Polish political, military and social elite.
The image of Mr Putin giving his Polish counterpart, Donald Tusk, a hug amid the debris of the wreckage has been replayed many times on Poland's news channels.
Hours later Mr Putin was back at Smolensk airport, head bowed, as he bade farewell to Mr Kaczynski's coffin before it was flown back to Warsaw.
Newspapers reprinted the text of President Dmitry Medvedev's televised address to Poles and noted Moscow's preparations to accommodate the families of the victims as they arrived in the city to carry out the gruesome task of helping to identify their loved ones.
"It's a paradox but the tragedy in Smolensk is a chance to connect our nations like never before," Marcin Wojciechowski wrote in a column in the leading daily, Gazeta Wyborzca.
"Russia's behaviour after the tragedy in Smolensk totally contradicts the thesis of those who claim that closer relations between Russia and Poland are impossible," he said.
Scar of Katyn
Of course there is still a long way to go down that road. The two governments disagree over issues ranging from energy, foreign policy and historical issues which sometimes date back centuries.
Warsaw poster showing the late Polish President Lech Kaczynski and his wife Maria
The memory of Katyn had helped shape Mr Kaczynski's politics
One of those historical issues paved the way for this latest tragedy. President Kaczynski's delegation was on its way to Smolensk to take part in the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre - the murder of more than 20,000 Polish officers by the Soviet secret police, the NKVD, in the forests of nearby Katyn and elsewhere, in 1940.
That tragedy has divided the nations ever since, particularly as the Soviet Union blamed the massacre on Nazi Germany for 50 years and Poland's post-war communist authorities forbade any discussion on the topic, preventing the families of the victims from finding out anything about the fate of their loved ones.
Mikhail Gorbachev only admitted Soviet responsibility in 1990. President Kaczynski took a tough line towards Russia and its historical responsibilities. Perhaps that is why Moscow did not invite him to take part in the first joint commemoration, held by Mr Putin and Mr Tusk at the Katyn cemetery just three days before the crash.
That event was viewed by many in Poland as a significant step on the road to improved relations that Mr Tusk's government has been pursuing.
A decision was even made that the film Katyn, by Poland's celebrated director Andrzej Wajda, which documents the Soviet lie, should be shown by Russian state TV, not just a peripheral channel.
But Mr Kaczynski was prepared to publicly acknowledge Russia's recent attempts to heal the pain caused by Katyn.
"Katyn has been a painful wound in Polish history and has poisoned relations between Poles and Russians for many decades," Mr Kaczynski wrote in a speech he was to deliver at the anniversary memorial service. "We Poles appreciate Russia's activities in recent years," he wrote.
It is something of a paradox that this latest tragedy to befall the Polish nation may actually prove to help the process of reconciliation between the two nations. |
|
|
|
| Xavier Moriarty |
| quote: | Originally posted by rabbitjoker
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ - I disagree entirely (and am too busy with other things to respond further). |
im impatiently waiting to see this. IMPATIENTLY !!!!
| quote: | | the reason why our president wanted to land in the capital of georgia, in tbilisi at all cost is because the russians were invading it... him along with 4 other presidents landed there & the russians stopped 100 km from the capital.. |
so..... , my head will explode. even though some of us were guessing what happened and were correct (polish president put his foot down to land, no matter the fog) its still Russians who, somehow, caused all this???
magnetonium its great to have you on the board. you seem like a level headed guy who knows what he talks about!! |
|
|
| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
im impatiently waiting to see this. IMPATIENTLY !!!!
so..... , my head will explode. even though some of us were guessing what happened and were correct (polish president put his foot down to land, no matter the fog) its still Russians who, somehow, caused all this???
magnetonium its great to have you on the board. you seem like a level headed guy who knows what he talks about!! |
Thanks :) Russians weren't going to invade Tbilisi, because of the urban warfare factor. Russian army wasn't prepared for the siege (they still haven't quite mastered urban warfare from Chechnya).
Russian forces expanded their operations outside of South Ossetia during that brief conflict for one main reason - to destroy Georgian military bases and equipment, and to mop up Georgian military operations. They had no interest in taking over Georgia, hence they granted independence to South Ossetia and Abkhazia, as a slap in the face to American-led campaign for independence of Kosovo. Though I disagree with declaring all three of these states as independent, it is a dangerous international precedent and violates international laws and obligations. Imagine granting Quebec independence? What kind of fools are Canadian politicians for recognizing Kosovo independence all while Bloc Quebecois are touring the country bragging about their independence plans? .
I repeat, Poland has nothing to fear from the Russians. Moscow has many internal problems to deal with, and those will keep it busy for decades to come (Islamists, AIDS, alcohol abuse, demographic decline, emigration, economy, infrastructure, democracy, etc). The way I see it, some politicians just use the Russians as the boogeymen to bolster their own political campaigns.
|
|
|
| geroin |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore_barbie
the reason why our president wanted to land in the capital of georgia, in tbilisi at all cost is because the russians were invading it... him along with 4 other presidents landed there & the russians stopped 100 km from the capital... |
what are you talking about??? seriously where are you getting your information from?
polish president went to tbillisi to support saakashvili. supporting a psychopath who on the main news channel broadcasted a fake news story that russia has invaded georgia creating panic throughout the country just a month ago.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8566571.stm
In return russians put up certain sanctions against georgia for attacking ossetia limiting their electricity because of the conflict, from what i've read i believe the airport had limited lightning system on the landing strip so most planes were not able to land in the airport but the polish president insisted for the pilot to land in Tbilisi airport without any lights at night even thought the pilot suggested to land in azerbaijan airport which is a few hundred km away and travel by car. Well they did land alright that time, but not in Smolensk. |
|
|
| StereoPrincess |
lol. I love how threads sometime take such a big turn.
I am going to be watching polish politics way more closely now. I really am interested in what will happen in the elections. Maybe there will be a young smart candidate out of the field that will do some good. |
|
|
| FunkyCrew |
| totally enjoying this thread! lol debates ftw! |
|
|
|
|
