Originally posted by DeleteFromUsers
I went because I'm kinda sick of having our economy dragged through the dirt because of idiotic American politicians who vote for policy based on the whims of the private interests who fund them.
All Canadians are affected by the American economy.
BTW, I'm an entrepreneur. I work 14hr days, sometimes for zero pay (not always), sometimes through weekends and holidays. I pay taxes on the income I do make.
ya but bro, don't forget to occopy ur "work shoes" :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
twentypercent
He's just a dumb kid but his sentiment is; if the banks can basically ask, "Give me free money" so why can't ordinary people do the same?
I don't agree with either.
The banks should fail, just as people are allowed to fail.
It's called free markets.
Only when the big boys up, they want corporate socialism.
nacarter
It's the usual suspects at these protests - mostly the professional "activists" who are 6 years into an MA in Pol Sci and are scared less that their future revolves around slinging lattes at Starbucks.
I wonder how many of these protesters want to give their high school guidance counsellor a kick in the ass for telling them that a BA in English, History, Womens Studies, etc. was a viable option?
You know who should be protesting? Guys with High School who can't get the manufacturing jobs that we gave blue collar schlubs 40 years ago. You know the ones that the Chinese, Indians and Indonesians got when we offshored 20 years ago.
Who else should be pissed off? How about couples in their mid-30's with a couple of kids who have to work two jobs because Dad can't get that middle management job because the Boomer that's sitting in that job WON'T IN' RETIRE!
When REAL people start taking action, then I'll look up. For now, the people who have made ty life choices and have the foresight of an ADD kid don't have much credibility.
Capo di tutti
quote:
Originally posted by DeleteFromUsers
BTW, I'm an entrepreneur. I work 14hr days, sometimes for zero pay (not always), sometimes through weekends and holidays. I pay taxes on the income I do make.
Sounds like you will be successful then one day, poverty is a great motivator and passion/drive like your is priceless - Your struggle isn't an uncommon one and its how everyone starts...(cue list of immigrant and/or impoverished Canadian million/billionaires)
Elendil
quote:
Originally posted by jon jon
ya but bro, don't forget to occopy ur "work shoes" :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Again though, my question: what exactly is it accomplishing?
Frankly, I'm as dismayed as anyone with many aspects of our economy, our political climate, and our society at large. Things, on many level, are messed up. However, what - with a complete lack of any real direction - is this going to accomplish?
Each and every one on this forum right now is enjoying the fruits of this system that the "99%" are apparently fighting against. Cheap technology. Cheap food. Commodities at large.
When you shop, do you ask the vendor what the conditions were of the factory? Do you shop exclusively from domestic manufacturers? Do you request to pay true market value for what it is you're browsing for?
I see a sign that says, in essence, "I'm not a commodity". Where were his shoes purchased from? Was it ok that the 5 year old making them is a commodity? Did he refrain from wearing a cotton shirt manufactured by slave labour?
My point is, if you're looking to inspire change, I don't see how walking around with vague intentions outside of our markets is the right direction. Why not start up a co-operative, and start purchasing goods direct from producers? Why not stop making decisions that contribute to the problem? Why not look inward - rather than outward - at the real cause of the problem? (It's us, the 99%, btw). Why not start using ingenuity to create, rather than succumbing to the basal desire to destroy?
Anyways, that's my thoughts.
edit: I should clarify, I say "primarily", and when I made that comment, I was directing it at said group. I don't expect that every single person attending falls into the category to which I was speaking.
DeleteFromUsers
quote:
Originally posted by Elendil
Again though, my question: what exactly is it accomplishing?
I think the lack of specific demands is a feature, not an omission.
The Occupy movement is requesting a fundamental change in how people treat people, in my opinion. Such broad concepts will have thousands or millions of answers and will take generations to accomplish.
Removing the fiction of innate alliances - political and religious borders, for instance. The realization that every person, regardless of race, religion, etc. has the right to be safe and healthy and educated. To understand that those who are successful are not successful solely on their own merits and hard work but rather that their success is largely a product of the society in which they have become successful and that very society has the right to participate in that success.
These are enormous ideas which apply to every human on the face of this planet. The burdens of past prejudice and tribalism will forever cripple humanity's evolution if we continue on our current path. We must change.
Elendil
quote:
Originally posted by DeleteFromUsers
I think the lack of specific demands is a feature, not an omission.
The Occupy movement is requesting a fundamental change in how people treat people, in my opinion. Such broad concepts will have thousands or millions of answers and will take generations to accomplish.
Removing the fiction of innate alliances - political and religious borders, for instance. The realization that every person, regardless of race, religion, etc. has the right to be safe and healthy and educated. To understand that those who are successful are not successful solely on their own merits and hard work but rather that their success is largely a product of the society in which they have become successful and that very society has the right to participate in that success.
These are enormous ideas which apply to every human on the face of this planet. The burdens of past prejudice and tribalism will forever cripple humanity's evolution if we continue on our current path. We must change.
Sounds fairly close - analogous, in fact - to the concept of leaving the ego behind - the concept of which has existed for as long as man has known both sets of reality (in whichever way he/she defined them). Furthermore, when you say "the occupy movement", you're projecting your own reality upon it - definitely your right - but I'm not sure if the claim holds weight beyond a small collective.
Ultimately, you're talking about the fundamental desire of mankind - to thwart the scarcity that exists in all current endeavors of man.
I believe that the only way which these ideas will be attainable will be:
a) When mankind develops a technology that places the ability to reconstruct (in a precise and direct manner) matter on a broad scale, and allows us to shape it at will (think star trek).
b) When mankind transcends his current state of evolution - plant consciousness, whatever you'd like to call it.
c) When some other as yet unforeseen interaction yields and escape from what chains us to our circumstance.
Scarcity, such as we know it, is a law of our Nature until that time.
Again, I simply don't believe that milling about is the means through which mankind's highest achievements are to be discovered.
Alas, we live in a free society (yes, it's not perfect), and such is it's gift. Enjoy the protest - and I mean this honestly - if you're gaining something of true substance, beyond what many will experience as topical, power to you - keep on it man.
Skipper
quote:
Originally posted by d-form
I understand some of the frustration. Conrad Black wrote a pretty good editorial about it in todays national post. If I lived in a country that just spent billions bailing out financial institutions at the expense of the middle class only to fall into a possible recession I'd be pissed to. But that didn't happen in Canada so not sure what we have to protest.
Agreed. We are not perfect here but it's unclear who the protests in Canada are directed towards. Our situation is much different than the US.
Ask a different participant about the point of all of this and you get a different answer every time. No clear message, no leader - since when did that strategy become effective? The movement has become a snowball of complaints. If I'm Harper, if I'm the CEO of Royal or Barrick Gold, what do I do?
The most effective way to change is by using either your vote or your wallet. Don't want to support corporate greed? Try shunning consumerism for once.
DeleteFromUsers
quote:
Originally posted by Elendil
Sounds fairly close - analogous, in fact - to the concept of leaving the ego behind - the concept of which has existed for as long as man has known both sets of reality (in whichever way he/she defined them). Furthermore, when you say "the occupy movement", you're projecting your own reality upon it - definitely your right - but I'm not sure if the claim holds weight beyond a small collective.
Ultimately, you're talking about the fundamental desire of mankind - to thwart the scarcity that exists in all current endeavors of man.
I believe that the only way which these ideas will be attainable will be:
a) When mankind develops a technology that places the ability to reconstruct (in a precise and direct manner) matter on a broad scale, and allows us to shape it at will (think star trek).
b) When mankind transcends his current state of evolution - plant consciousness, whatever you'd like to call it.
c) When some other as yet unforeseen interaction yields and escape from what chains us to our circumstance.
Scarcity, such as we know it, is a law of our Nature until that time.
Again, I simply don't believe that milling about is the means through which mankind's highest achievements are to be discovered.
Alas, we live in a free society (yes, it's not perfect), and such is it's gift. Enjoy the protest - and I mean this honestly - if you're gaining something of true substance, beyond what many will experience as topical, power to you - keep on it man.
Really, I think we're talking past each other. I don't see the above post having anything to do with the people sleeping on Wall Street or in St. James Park. I don't see the connection to lobbyists purchasing legislation in Congress. I don't see the connection to income inequality. I don't see any of this. These are tangible issues with achievable solutions right now - and that's the difference.
I think we can achieve meaningful change. Clearly the Occupy movement is gaining traction - both in the US and abroad. Do I expect major reform/revolution due to the protests in their current state? No. Could it be the beginning of something much larger? Yes. That's the point. Someone's doing something. Eventually fewer will do nothing, and then we'll have something meaningful.
Elendil
double posted.
Elendil
We're not talking past each other. When you talk about ideas that are millions of years away from solution, we're talking to the point. I'm talking to the macro-level of all of these issues, which is relevant and cannot be overlooked.
We're further talking about the same thing when we look at Lobbying, for instance. This is little different then a few friends sitting in a tree house trying to lean on their buddy to go grab some cookies from the cookie jar inside the house.
The only solution to change things like patronage, lobbying, back-room negotiations, etc, is to fundamentally change human nature. For as long as their is scarcity, their will be groups of people who collect more resources than others. Money is just one of many means through which our species differentiates one another, for evolutionary demands (such as acquiring mates, ensuring the survival of your lineage, etc).
Anyways - again, while some of these ideas may be held by a collective, none of them will be achieved without making concise, coherent requests. An amorphous blob with a million different voices will not accomplish that. If the movement is about gender inequality, then that would be a great target to use as a platform. If it's about a couple of things, make those a base. In order for their to be a claim that people are doing something - more so than gathering and walking around - this would go a long way.
Actually attempting to speak with a voice, a voice that perhaps represents that 99%, rather than simply claiming to be, would be a great start.
Anyways, It'll be interesting to see where this develops. And to be truthful, if something fantastic comes out of it - such as increased civil action on individual responsibilities and freedom, cool.
edit: I meant to add, if this is simply about the exchange of ideas - the featured lack of a cohesive set of demands - is not the internet a better venue? I mean, flesh out the ideas on forums and walls where everyone can read, and go from there? Establishment of a website which can help direct patrons to methods for meaningful impact on the issues? A collection of ideas centralized, for all to read, proliferating out into the collective consciousness? Maybe a largescale vague protest is putting the cart before the horse? Anyways, just a thought.
And just so one main point isn't entirely overshadowed: I, if it isn't obvious, spend a great amount of time looking towards the issues of our day, and a great deal of time seeking to better understand how to navigate the world in order to become a better functioning citizen and father. I am not some 80 year old elite tyrant sitting on a dragons wealth. We essentially want the same things. So again, if you think the protest is a route to achieving them, keep at it.
LightsOut
I watched a bit of it yesterday on CP24 and I really just don't get it.
In the States they're protesting against bank bailouts, the sub-prime mortgage fiasco, double digit unemployment and an unequal distribution of wealth. Fair enough, I get that, America has a long list of problems.
Maybe I'm naive, but I think Canada is a pretty amazing country. Our banks have stayed stable during this whole recession and legally aren't allowed to function in the irresponsible manner of their American counterparts. Hence, no subprime mortgage crisis here. In June, Ontario created more jobs then the entire United States. We have free health care, decent assistance for new businesses, and relatively affordable education. Economically speaking, Canada is one of the strongest western countries in the world (probably the strongest behind Germany, who have to artificially prop up the EU). I also don't get this 99% thing up here. I'd like to think the majority of Canadians are happy with how this country is being governed and the opportunities available here.
