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Occupy Toronto (pg. 6)
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| Elendil |
| quote: | Originally posted by jon jon
like... the civil rights movement? |
The civil rights movement had a clear, coherent message. That simply reinforces my central belief. When a gathering is united behind a core set of values (that are defined, with an end result requested), makes a salient point, and makes a demand, things get done.
I was more referring to the directionless mobs of England - for that matter, also common amongst other disordered societies. |
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| Elendil |
| quote: | Originally posted by SPANIARD
I just want to add that not only is Chris Hedges 1000X smarter, braver, honest and courageous than someone like Kevin O'Leary, he's also not known for his economic critiques (his main writings are on religion and American foreign policy). It's so shameful that Kevin O'Leary can't even make a rebuttal on the most basic issues that are at hand when he is paid to talk about the economy on National TV and instead sticks to ad hominem attacks. Good on Hedges for not wanting to come back on because he is 100% right (sadly) about the 'Fox News' type treatment he recieved. |
I totally respect Chris Hedges was saying - perhaps minus the fact that I don't believe that the protesters (at large) truly understand even the half of what has transpired, or the nature of what they're addressing. Nonetheless, there is a man voicing an educated, concise and poignant perspective on the issues at hand (particularly with regards to the United States). I'll listen to that any day. |
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| Xavier Moriarty |
| quote: | | The next general meeting at 6 pm will likely focus around plans for Monday as the financial district reopens for business. |
lol
| quote: | | Who cares if there is no cohesive plan or objective |
LOL. people like this make me wanna vomit.
as for the movement, Bakunin wrote in God and the state "Juridically they are both equal [the worker and capitalist]; but economically the worker is the serf of the capitalist . . . thereby the worker sells his person and his liberty for a given time. The worker is in the position of a serf because this terrible threat of starvation which daily hangs over his head and over his family, will force him to accept any conditions imposed by the gainful calculations of the capitalist, the industrialist, the employer. . . .The worker always has the right to leave his employer, but has he the means to do so? No, he does it in order to sell himself to another employer. He is driven to it by the same hunger which forces him to sell himself to the first employer. Thus the worker's liberty . . . is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. The truth is that the whole life of the worker is simply a continuous and dismaying succession of terms of serfdom -- voluntary from the juridical point of view but compulsory from an economic sense -- broken up by momentarily brief interludes of freedom accompanied by starvation; in other words, it is real slavery."
the idea behind it is great but
| quote: | | You know who should be protesting? Guys with High School who can't get the manufacturing jobs that we gave blue collar schlubs 40 years ago. You know the ones that the Chinese, Indians and Indonesians got when we offshored 20 years ago. |
bang ing on !!!! i wouldnt be caught 50 feet from those douchebags protesting just for the s of it. the time for a change is near but its gotta be done for a right reasons and done propperly |
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| Elendil |
| quote: | Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
lol
LOL. people like this make me wanna vomit.
as for the movement, Bakunin wrote in God and the state "Juridically they are both equal [the worker and capitalist]; but economically the worker is the serf of the capitalist . . . thereby the worker sells his person and his liberty for a given time. The worker is in the position of a serf because this terrible threat of starvation which daily hangs over his head and over his family, will force him to accept any conditions imposed by the gainful calculations of the capitalist, the industrialist, the employer. . . .The worker always has the right to leave his employer, but has he the means to do so? No, he does it in order to sell himself to another employer. He is driven to it by the same hunger which forces him to sell himself to the first employer. Thus the worker's liberty . . . is only a theoretical freedom, lacking any means for its possible realisation, and consequently it is only a fictitious liberty, an utter falsehood. The truth is that the whole life of the worker is simply a continuous and dismaying succession of terms of serfdom -- voluntary from the juridical point of view but compulsory from an economic sense -- broken up by momentarily brief interludes of freedom accompanied by starvation; in other words, it is real slavery."
the idea behind it is great but
bang ing on !!!! i wouldnt be caught 50 feet from those douchebags protesting just for the s of it. the time for a change is near but its gotta be done for a right reasons and done propperly |
Just wanted to touch on one point regarding the quote made by Bakunin.
It neglects the fact that, in our society, a worker is capable and free to - at any point - deny serfdom and become a capitalist him/herself. Canada has a tremendous small business sector, and I personally know many individuals who have escaped serfdom through such means. All it takes is ingenuity, creativity & determination - traits which any may freely access.
I will not deny, though, that it is a challenge. I'm a single dad trying to accomplish just such a feat, and I know how difficult such a path is. However, all good rewards in life come from grit and determination. I'll take the metaphorical chains over literal ones any day ;) |
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| ChemEnhanced |
| These protests will not accomplish anything. The fact that people think it will is laughable. |
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| Yohan |
| quote: | Originally posted by ChemEnhanced
These protests will not accomplish anything. The fact that people think it will is laughable. |
well i dont think its laughable but without coherent and clear message, all this is just loud noises to me and easy to tune out.
Can anyone give an example of mass protest that worked in democratic western countries that actually worked in last 20 yrs? |
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| ChemEnhanced |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yohan
well i dont think its laughable but without coherent and clear message, all this is just loud noises to me and easy to tune out.
Can anyone give an example of mass protest that worked in democratic western countries that actually worked in last 20 yrs? |
Mass protest does not work anymore....especially peaceful mass protest.
There is no real leadership or clear message being brought forth. They are having these same protests in Montreal and Vancouver and its the same problem...too many messages and no clear leadership. |
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| CMR |
| quote: | Originally posted by LightsOut
Look at the rest of the world. Millions are starving in Africa, hundreds of millions work for less then $10 a day in Asia, adequate and affordable education and health care are non existent in many South American, African and Asian countries. These people would love nothing more then to come to Canada and have the same opportunities we have. |
By this logic, why should the people have protested in Egypt and Libya and so on? I mean, they certainly had it better than those in Zimbabwe and Afghanistan and so on. In fact almost no one anywhere should ever protest or complain at all, because chances are, there is someone somewhere thats in a much tier situation.
And while we should certainly be grateful to live in a country like Canada, that doesn't mean that there aren't worrying economic trends currently taking place and ways that we could improve our country. |
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| Elendil |
| quote: | Originally posted by CMR
By this logic, why should the people have protested in Egypt and Libya and so on? I mean, they certainly had it better than those in Zimbabwe and Afghanistan and so on. In fact almost no one anywhere should ever protest or complain at all, because chances are, there is someone somewhere thats in a much tier situation.
And while we should certainly be grateful to live in a country like Canada, that doesn't mean that there aren't worrying economic trends currently taking place and ways that we could improve our country. |
Your taking a fair bit of liberty with that retort...
Isn't their subtle (and not so subtle) degrees separating a given set of circumstances and the according responses?
For instance: in Egypt, fundamental abilities for citizens on a large scale to purchase food were in turmoil. The people were spurred to action.
I'll look to the analogy of: if there is a fire in the toaster, you probably don't grab the fire hose. However, if the damned building is 5 alarm, you grab as many as you can.
I don't think Matty was saying things aren't worth worrying about. I think he was more accurately simply asking: "Do we need to bust out this particularly fire-hose to put out the fire". |
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| LightsOut |
| quote: | Originally posted by CMR
By this logic, why should the people have protested in Egypt and Libya and so on? I mean, they certainly had it better than those in Zimbabwe and Afghanistan and so on.
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Believe me, if I lived in a country ruled by a military dictator (egypt/libya), Islamic extremists (Taliban in Afghanistan), or a crazed lunatic (mugabe in zimbabwe), I'd be protesting too. ;) |
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| FunkyCrew |
some very interesting points on here! Thanks Elendil & Lightsout
Jon - I understand that you disagree with stuff but you're not making much sense with your comments :) |
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| jon jon |
lol funky speaks!
:tongue3 |
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