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Kosovo - Independent Coutry...WTF?!?! (pg. 13)
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| zokissima |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
The thing is, Serbia didn't have much of a 'hold' on Kosovo, considering Kosovo had much autonomy under Yugo, and the fact that Serbs are quite outnumbered by Albanians.
If there is one Serb left on Kosovo, does that still mean Serbia has a 'hold' on Kosovo? Realistically?
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No, absolutely not, but what I'm reading from the above is that the only thing that is needed for geographical autonomy is a majority of populace?
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happens. Learn to deal with it, or perish as society.
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Too simplistic, and doesn't take into account some fundamental rules of human nature. Sometimes objectivism just isn't enough to fully comprehend the weight of a situation. Totally disregarding the subjective in this does not fairly (or at all really) assess the situation. Ania kind of said the rest of what I was going to say.
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As for death and destruction, Yugoslavia separated and all the nations don't quite go off and killing each other. I realize Serbia and Kosovo isn't quite the same thing, but recognizing that the world won't let people go off and kill each other (at least, not in Europe) means I really doubt there will be another round of former Yugoslavia conflict again |
They didn't go off killing each other because other nations intervened, nay, I should really be blunt and say "sent armed-to-the-teeth" troops; kind of a paradox in that whole idea of autonomy IMO. There are troops stationed all over the place there, and those closest to the 'peacekeepers' reaped the greatest benefit, while those who were demonized, in this case Serbs, got the short end of the shaft, and are still getting it today, which means it seems that consistently you have to have someone to demonize in order to elevate someone else? I dunno if that is the way of "dealing" with it.
Anyways, I'm off of work, we could definitely continue this via PM if you wish :) |
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| rabbitjoker |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
So, I can't have an opinion unless I experience it? |
No, she means that unless you've taken a few 500 level PoliSci classes you shouldn't chime in on topics... |
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| Xavier Moriarty |
she is right though.
GO POLISH !!!! lol |
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| malek |
| quote: | Originally posted by Superstring
This is the stupidest thing I've read in this thread.
If you do not know about the politics of the region (in this case, Eastern Europe), do not post crap.
To clarify: Russia will not go quietly without a fight on this. The reason? Russia is facing it's own separatist movement. If you notice, the ONLY countries supporting this thing are countries which do NOT face significant internal struggles.
Russia wants to stay an empire (and rightly so). If you let everyone form a country, you have chaos. In that respect, they are correct. |
you seem pretty stupid yourself, many the countries supporting Kosovo have too internal separatist movements, England with Scotland/N. Ireland, France with Corse, ...
next time you think twice about calling people stupid.
Russia has much higher intrests elsewhere than Kosovo, sure they might show some signs of frustration, but life goes on. |
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| zokissima |
| quote: | Originally posted by Special K
Im sorry but I fail to see how you derived that from what I said.
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- there were large scale massacres of non-communist croatians as well as anti-communists of other ethnic groups and if you were a catholic living in the former yugoslavia then life wasnt pretty for you.
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1) "non-communist croations" Sorry, not only croatians.
2) "catholic living in the former..." Vast majority of catholics = croatians.
There were just enough nuances in your post to make it clear. Don't bother replying, we can both go on and on, but we both know it won't go anywhere. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by zokissima
No, absolutely not, but what I'm reading from the above is that the only thing that is needed for geographical autonomy is a majority of populace? |
A majority of population that wants independence from a sovereign nation, yes.
Isn't that what self determination is?
What else would you consider as valid?
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Too simplistic, and doesn't take into account some fundamental rules of human nature. Sometimes objectivism just isn't enough to fully comprehend the weight of a situation. Totally disregarding the subjective in this does not fairly (or at all really) assess the situation. Ania kind of said the rest of what I was going to say.
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I'm not disregarding emotional responses of the Serbs. I just don't think it's as valid as the reality of the situation.
Nor will emotional responses change the reality of the situation.
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They didn't go off killing each other because other nations intervened, nay, I should really be blunt and say "sent armed-to-the-teeth" troops; kind of a paradox in that whole idea of autonomy IMO. There are troops stationed all over the place there, and those closest to the 'peacekeepers' reaped the greatest benefit, while those who were demonized, in this case Serbs, got the short end of the shaft, and are still getting it today, which means it seems that consistently you have to have someone to demonize in order to elevate someone else? I dunno if that is the way of "dealing" with it.
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I agree that requirement of international military presence to keep peace is the ideal method of keeping peace.
But like you said, without these soldiers, various ethnic groups would go around killing each other.
Bosnia has more or less quieted down after years of international peacekeeping. Perhaps Serbs and Albanians will learn to at least tolerate each other, or they will get shot by NATO. |
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| miljan |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
Bosnia has more or less quieted down after years of international peacekeeping. Perhaps Serbs and Albanians will learn to at least tolerate each other, or they will get shot by NATO. |
And you're wrong. |
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| zokissima |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ania_xox
I went off. Post-communist transitions are a HUGE soft spot for me. I'm still really pissed at his moronic comment.
I am extremely annoyed by people who have this whole "sit back and judge" mindframe on these kinds of topics. You don't know and you won't know. You can read all the articles you want, watch every news channel so that your brain can piece together "unbiased" information so that you can become "well-informed" on a certain topic. That kind of information serves to create political opinions on general things.
Even if you are aware of the "bad that goes down" within a war torn area of the world - i.e. you've seen videos or pictures or heard accounts from primary sources such as civilians - your brain can't even FATHOM what it would be like to be in those situations. You don't have the mental capacity to understand it.
Yes, we all have the right to pass judgement and to state our opinions - but have some ing respect for the gravity of the situation you are judging. That kind of infuriates me. |
This is a spot-on argument. This has nothing to do with a level 500 or whatever PolSci course RJ. Arguing with your tones of sarcasm only further illustrates your lack of understanding. You post one picture, or write two paragraphs so you can summarize with the western academic term of "powder keg" must have been your only goal, since you basically only summarized what a thirty minute Google search would have told you.
The enormity, and larger-than-life experiences of living through something like this just cannot be retold effectively via media. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by miljan
And you're wrong. |
And how am I wrong? |
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| zokissima |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ania_xox
I went off. Post-communist transitions are a HUGE soft spot for me. I'm still really pissed at his moronic comment.
I am extremely annoyed by people who have this whole "sit back and judge" mindframe on these kinds of topics. You don't know and you won't know. You can read all the articles you want, watch every news channel so that your brain can piece together "unbiased" information so that you can become "well-informed" on a certain topic. That kind of information serves to create political opinions on general things.
Even if you are aware of the "bad that goes down" within a war torn area of the world - i.e. you've seen videos or pictures or heard accounts from primary sources such as civilians - your brain can't even FATHOM what it would be like to be in those situations. You don't have the mental capacity to understand it.
Yes, we all have the right to pass judgement and to state our opinions - but have some ing respect for the gravity of the situation you are judging. That kind of infuriates me. |
This is a spot-on argument. This has nothing to do with a level 500 or whatever PolSci course RJ. Arguing with your tones of sarcasm only further illustrates your lack of understanding. You post one picture, or write two paragraphs so you can summarize with the western academic term of "powder keg" must have been your only goal, since you basically only summarized what a thirty minute Google search would have told you.
The enormity, and larger-than-life experiences of living through something like this just cannot be retold effectively via media. Living there for years, being absorbed into it, having that be all you know, having every single blood-relative still there now; this is not like reading a book and sharing our thoughts on it, where everyone has a valid opinion. In this thread, we are all entitled to one thing; to HAVE an opinion, but it stops there. Some opinions plain and simple have more weight than others, mostly based on their experiences. This is a standard well accepted in almost all forms of argument, and it holds true in this case too. |
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| rabbitjoker |
| quote: | Originally posted by zokissima
illustrates your lack of understanding. |
Lack of understanding??! My "understanding" and knowledge of this issue is extensive enough to form a valid opinion. Some of us weren't playing with Lego when this stuff actually happened.
I love how I'm getting blasted in this thread for calling a spade a spade... lol. |
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| Engine9 |
| quote: | Originally posted by wikipedia
According to the Kosovo in Figures 2005 Survey of the Statistical Office of Kosovo, Kosovo's total population is estimated between 1.9 and 2.2 million in the following ethnic proportions:
* 92% Albanians
* 4% Serbs
* 2% Bosniaks and Gorans
* 1% Roma
* 1% Turks |
why do u care if they left? they are all shiptars anyway that u hate.. |
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