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Kosovo - Independent Coutry...WTF?!?! (pg. 54)
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| Xavier Moriarty |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ortemy
Spartak Moscow fans last Sunday on their home game:
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damn ing right. that brought tears to my eyes.
| quote: | | This is the most important point anyone has mentioned on this thread that I have been able to read. My apologies if this has been adressed in the last 40 or so odd pages. While the KLA / UCK, the exact type of fundamental Islamic paramilitary (I am very apprehensive about throwing the word 'terrorist' around casually)which the global war on terror officially targets is now in control of a sovereign state which also happens to be the hub of Europe's heroin trade, it is, as you have pointed out, excessively perplexing that the west has taken the line that it has on Kosovar independence. Sadly enough, there is a shady agenda being enacted by the free world's military leaders. Camp Bondsteel in the Ferizaj highlands in Kosovo is the second largest US military installation on foreign soil. Having secured the base of production for most of Western Europe's heroin supply in Afghanistan, those who hold power (which becomes progressively less clear daily) over the North American military industrial complex have jumped on the opportunity to bring the main access route for the 'commodity' under their direct control. Without Serb border controls or authorities, the supply runs freely, and completely supervised and protected directly from Camp Bondsteel. |
im really glad that at least somebody gets it. kudos to you man.
| quote: | | Hah that makes me laugh, i'm sorry |
why does it make you laugh bro? i dont get it? |
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| Yohan |
| quote: | Originally posted by zokissima
Dude, seriously, why the do you even bother posting in this thread anymore?
1) All you've done is question pretty much everything that was stated. You provided no valid points, and have made no solid argument, nor posted any solid conclusion. |
I don't know how solid my arguments are, but I thought I made a case looking at the situation from historical and objective and realist point of view.
You don't like them. Fine. Dismiss them? That's your choice.
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2) You are not from there, understand nothing of it, and when explanations are posted to you, all you do is question and abhore it. |
I question the emotional outbursts of Serbs. I understand what Kosovo means to Serbs, because I understand nationalism. | quote: |
However, emotional outbursts will not change the situation of Kosovo.
3) You post material that does nothing but fan the flames of a discussion that is long over on this site, sourced from the shallowest and most biased of places. |
lol what?
bbc is not a valid source?
inflame the situation? these articles have no validity of the discussion at hand?
get off the emotional high dude. |
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| capo tutti di |
| quote: | Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
damn ing right. that brought tears to my eyes.
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how about you enlighten us who use the English alphabet? |
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| Xavier Moriarty |
| quote: | Originally posted by capo tutti di
how about you enlighten us who use the English alphabet? |
huh? explain. edit - im not trying to be a prick, i really dont understand what are you asking me?
| quote: | | bbc is not a valid source? |
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
what was it ??? " HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS albanians are being butchered...." |
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| Yohan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
what was it ??? " HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS albanians are being butchered...." |
link?
I suppose I'll have to break out my copy of the Pravda and Nodong Shinmun again *le sigh* |
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| Xavier Moriarty |
your arrogance is starting to piss me off.
google Jamie Shea and kosovo.
that man's lies were responsible for deaths of THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of Serbian civilians in SERBIA not kosovo.
google nato bombing rts or train. get ing educated on what really happened, whats true and whats lie and then we can have normal conversation. what you doing right now is being inconsiderate know-it-all. |
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| geroin |
| quote: | Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
know-it-all. |
i have noticed that many times he does start to argue about things that he knows very little info about. |
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| capo tutti di |
Hey ya
no offense taken I'm curious about the banner
because i cannot read what it is |
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| Xavier Moriarty |
| quote: | Who’s Ethnically Cleansing Whom in the Balkans?
Excerts from article by Mary Mostert, Analyst, May 19, 1999
Is the Chief Liar in the Balkans Bill Clinton or Slobodan Milosevic?
A reader worried that I believe too much in the "reliability of certain sources," especially as it related to two recently mentioned stories:
1- claims that the refugees were paid actors that were instructed to walk in a certain formation, so as to give the impression of being great in numbers. Not that I doubt for one moment that the media might be amplifying the actual numbers.
2- warnings about a planned massacre by the NATO troops, which did occur after all. I think that one cannot discount the possibility that the Serb police did indeed manufacture it, as NATO claims, and knowing what NATO's line was going to be, started spreading these rumours so as to be able to turn around and say "we told you it would happen". I don't believe this is what happened. Here at work, I am telling my colleagues the other side of the story, protesting "The Australian"'s front page headline "The Face of Human Shields", even before the investigation into the incident is complete. But the fact that you were warned about it, does not in itself prove much to the American pilot who protested against your views.
I would very much like to get some evidence of the magnitude of the killings in Krajina. I have often spoken about them, because I remember reading about them at the time. But now I am being challenged to produce hard evidence all the time. When it's my word against CNN's, most Australians will believe the latter.
So, I thought this would be a good time to stop and clear the air, so to speak, about what I REALLY think. Do I REALLY "support Milosevic and the Serbs and their ‘right’ to punish the Kosovos" because I hate Clinton? Well, actually, no. First, I don’t hate anyone, not even the ones it is politically correct to hate in this situation - the Serbs. While I have been told by a number of people over the months about how terrible Milosevic is - frankly I have not seen proof that he has done all the different things people tell me he has done. Anger and resentment towards Milosevic ranges from complaints that he has "ethnically cleansed" the Albanians and other nationalities in the former Yugoslavia, to complaints that he has sat back and done nothing while militant minorities in Yugoslavia destroyed the country. Yet, as of 1997, Yugoslavia had experienced an increase in the percentage of Albanians living in the country from 8% in 1984 to 14% in 1997. This is "ethnic cleansing" of Albanians?
Being a logical person I just don’t think both charges can be true. And, when I check my unemotional data sources, such as the World Almanac, I find that the groups Milosevic has been accused of "ethnically cleansing" have grown in power and actual numbers (the Albanians, for instance) while the Serbs appear to have LOST power and numbers.
Where are the "ethnically pure" pockets in the Balkans? Well, Albania it the most ethnically pure - with 95% of its population Albanian, since it got rid of its Greek minority just two years ago. Of the breakaway Yugoslav states, my latest Almanac, for 1998, shows: · Croatia to be 78% Croatian and 12% Serb (the Serbs were 18% of Croatia before the 1995 ethnic cleansing by Tudjman and NATO bombing, when Serbs were driven out of Krajina and a reported 20,000 killed who didn’t move fast enough. In 1984, before Tito died and the break-up began, Croats were 20% of Yugoslavia population
· Bosnia and Herzegovina to be 40% Serbian, 38% Muslim, Croatian 22%. In 1984, the country of Yugoslavia consisted of: Serbs - 36% of the population, Croats - 20%, Bosnian Muslims - 9%, Slovenes -8%, Macedonians- 6%, Albanians- 8%, Montenegrin Serbs- 3%, and Hungarian- 2%.
· Slovenia to be 91% Slovene and 3% Croat and 95% Roman Catholic. In 1984, Slovenes made up only 8% of Yugoslavia
· Macedonia to be 65% Macedonian and 22% Albanian. In 1984, Macedonians made up 6% of Yugoslavia’s population, and Albanians made up 8% of the population of Yugoslavia. ·
The two remaining independent Republics of Serbia and Montenegro, which now make up a Yugoslavia that has about 40% of the land for the former Yugoslavia, and over half the population of the former Yugoslavia, according to the 1998 World Almanac, is 63% Serb, 14% Albanian and 6% Montenegrin with the remaining 17% of the population divided up between 23 other ethnic groups - Greeks, Hungarians, Romanians, Gypsies, etc.
So, it would appear based on the numbers, whatever Milosevic can be accused of - ethnic cleansing is really not one of them. He’s got the only truly ethnically mixed state left of the former Yugoslavia. The breakaway republics, however, and Albania are ethnically pretty much ethnically cleansed of Serbs. Note, however, that while the former Yugoslavia was only 8% Albanian, the now existing Yugoslavia was 14% Albanian - with no Albanians listed in the breakaway republics of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Hercegovina.
One reader’s solution, which apparently the Clinton administration shares, along with CNN, is the arming of the Kosovar Albanians. Well, until recently, they WERE armed. What upset everyone and precipitated the NATO bombing was that nasty Milosevic’s move to disarm them. Yugoslav spokesmen - and this is verified by my trusty little World Almanacs - claim there actually were only something like 800,000 Albanians who were citizens of Kosovo before the huge influx of illegal aliens following the disintegration of the Stalinist Communist regime in Albania a few years ago. However, the Alliance is determined that 1,800,000 Albanians are going to live in Kosovo because that’s the number they say were there before they started bombing and so many of them started leaving.
Did Milosevic and his army drive them out, or did the bombing drive them out? The answer to that seems to depend on who you are talking to.
And, that brings us to the second story - the one about refugee "actors" and NATO planning to bomb a refugee camp with Yugoslav type airplanes, painted with Yugoslav colors and insignia which the second writer thinks I’m wrong about believing. Well, guess what? I don’t believe it. Unless, of course, it happens, and it hasn’t happened yet. The bombs that were dropped on Albanians camped in a parking lot in Korisa clearly did not fit that story - although they were bombed. NATO spokesman Jamie Shea claimed that Korisa was a "military target" and he "didn’t know what those Albanians were doing there" but darkly suggested that the evil Serbs had forced them to camp there because they knew NATO probably would bomb the place and had forced them to be "human shields" for the military installation.
I have two small problems with that. First, although most of the 79 Albanians killed were so blown to pieces by the bombs that their body parts cannot be identified, 17 of the bodies were sufficiently intact that they were identified and I got an e-mail yesterday with the names, ages, birthplace and date of birth listed for those 17 identified bodies. And, guess what? All of the children identified were "born in the village of Korisa, Municipality of Prizren" and most of the identifiable adults were "born in the village of Korisa, Municipality of Prizren." They were in the village of Korisa because that was their home. They had come down from the mountains, were they were not finding very much to eat, because the Serbs told them it was OK. Apparently the only Serbs killed were a couple of policemen. No Serb soldier were there to kill.
Second, where’s the evidence of blown up military targets that should have been there? Why would Jamie Shea say he "didn’t know what they were doing there?" Because he thinks ALL the Albanians should have left by now. Yet, he says, they are not targeting civilians. In Monday’s NATO Press Conference, the CNN reporter asked: "Given where this crisis is at now, and given all that would have to be done to return all of the refugees to their homes, can that be done before winter sets in?"
Jamie Shea’s long-winded response was: "We saw in the past in October, when many of them were internally displaced, they went back very quickly as soon as we had for a while a cease-fire and started to rebuild. Obviously they are going to need help from the international community particularly in terms of winterisation for their homes so that they can get through the winter but as I say, they are motivated and they live in a society with an enormous tradition of mutual help and assistance and so yes, I would expect that once the circumstances are right you'll see them returning very quickly indeed. The fact that most of them want to stay in the area rather than be evacuated to other countries shows just how keen they are to get home. "They will go back as soon as the air campaign has produced the results and the international security presence is there but they won't go home before the international security presence is there, that is clear, so the international community will have to ensure that we deploy those troops very quickly indeed to create that environment of safety but once that is there I expect they will start going back in their thousands particularly as they are very much in the region and therefore that transport could take place quickly. "
Huh? First, the residents of Korisa had stayed close to their village and, when there was a lull in the ground war between the KLA and the Yugoslav army, they went home to their village, based evidently solely on the assurance of the Serbs that all was well on the ground - only to be killed by NATO bombs. Shea ADMITS that as soon as there was a cease-fire in October, those hiding in the hills went home. They left again when the bombing started. Many of them - both Albanians and Serbs - fled Kosovo altogether. What Shea is saying in his confused way is that those Albanians in Korisa SHOULD HAVE LEFT so NATO could bomb the Serbs. It’s not NATO’s fault that they are dead. It’s their own fault. They were supposed to leave so this bombing campaign that is not targeting civilians could kill only Serbs.
So, dear reader, never fear. I am not one to believe what either side SAYS, without some sort of empirical evidence - which is why I check population figures in World Almanacs. One side says the Croatians DIDN’T drive the Serbs out of Croatia in 1995, and kill 20,000 (although 3 Croatian generals were recently indicted by the Hague for it), and the other side said they did, too. Who to believe? Check the demographics in the World Almanacs - and it says 6% of over 5 million people are no longer there - the Serbs. That’s 300,000 Serbs who disappeared out of Croatia from 1995 to 1997.
How come that didn’t bother CNN and Jamie Shea, do you suppose? |
coming not from Serbs but from a NEUTRAL point of view.
| quote: | | have noticed that many times he does start to argue about things that he knows very little info about. |
he knows some things, but he thinks that everything coming from me, or any other Serbs is biased.
how do i explain some things to somebody who thinks he knows everything and that whatever i say is tainted because im Serb??
i dont even know why the am i trying anymore. |
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| Xavier Moriarty |
| quote: | Originally posted by capo tutti di
Hey ya
no offense taken I'm curious about the banner
because i cannot read what it is |
oh. sorry, i didnt get it.
it says KOSOVO IS SERBIA |
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| capo tutti di |
| quote: | Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
oh. sorry, i didnt get it.
it says KOSOVO IS SERBIA |
I've always wanted to read more into the whole conflict as alot went down in my lifetime (early 90's civil war??)
But really this probably goes back centuries and don't know where to start reading lol |
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