Originally posted by Dr. Z
Let me outline the problem out for you.
The conflict is complicated and there are several layers of understanding of the conflict. Going from simplest to truest, they are:
1. The conflict they heard on tv
2. The historically accurate series of events that lead to the conflict
3. The third parties invloved and the reasons for the beginning of the conflict
4. The third parties involved and the reasons for continual violence
You are somewhere inbetween 2 and 3, while some people on this board are 2, few are on 1, but most are 3, and some on 3.5.
For you, you're assuming people are on 1 and 1.5, and when someone answers in 3.5 terms, it doesn't make sense to you, so you assume they dont understand. Hence the whole drama.
Makes sense now?
Firstly, im glad someone is finally forming a real argument, be it on the debate itself, nevertheless. I understand what your saying completely, its a balancing act as the internet is not some closed debate room but full of people that have different levels of understanding of the same subject. Having said that, I'm trying my best to cater to all with what I know, but I beg to differ that most people have somewhat of a clear understanding. Ive been debating this issue in many different forums both virtual and real and I can assure you that most people are still at the level of knowledge of which is gained from watching television and reading the newspaper. Some people in my university don't even know what Palestine is, let alone the knowledge of the issue.
Of course there are many who understand some of the intricacies at work here, they could have the same views or a have slightly different views. But when someone who claims they know it all, and then calls me names, it gets frustrating as the only reason i'm here is due to my passion of knowledge and the spread of knowledge. I'm a very sensible person who loves to take debate point for point, and if im ever proven wrong I take it 100%.
I'm glad you brought that up, as its the reason I cannot continue here, I'm getting attacked by those who know and those who don't in different ways, I cannot keep it up. Yet again I say this, but I really don't want to continue, but I feel obligated if someone asks or quotes me ;)
Abercrombie
quote:
Originally posted by Anas Attia
Bro, not everyone knows whats going on there! where do you get that idea? That's the primary reason the problem isn't solved, because everyone is so Ill-educated on the issue.
You just called everyone ignorant again.
ChemEnhanced
now we have to blow this thread up to
geroin
anas, instead of posting over and over again about how no one is listening to what you have to say can you please state in point form what exactly you're trying to say here (without videos please)?
from what i gathered so far
1. its a one sided war
2. israel is building a wall around palestine
3. people are left with no water and supplies
quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
great post.
HouseGuru
quote:
Originally posted by Anas Attia
Again, you guys are missing all the points and the core issues i'm presenting. Calling me names, and further embarrassing yourselves. I said I no longer wanted to argue here as the debate is too shallow, but you ONLY insist on insulting me further.
This is your way of debate, but it is not real debate, you guys are talking with emotion not reason.
HouseGuru....
Why are you guys calling me stubborn? why do you say I have a biased views? Why do you tell me to forget about the so called occupation? Telling me to keep my ego in check? telling me to put MY difference aside and learn compassion? Stop trying to convince others who is right and teach tolerance and love?
Wow man, honestly I don't even know what to say as none of the above is even close to true, I laugh at you and you "debate" style... not one point has anything to do with the issues, but simply to do with your views of me. I hope you see the problem with that.
Your laughing at me...your quite comical dude. Like I said your like a little kid that holds his breath till he gets what he wants. Poor me...I'm crying inside because they are bombing my people. Did you ever wonder why? Maybe its because the lunatics that are supposed to represent your people are firing missiles. Are you seriously defending these fanatics? The only way you could get back any credibility is to denounce these idiots that support terror and work toward educating your people that they are wrong. You say its not about religion but I don't believe it for one second. This whole tragedy was brought about because of it. Who are you trying to kid.
Grow up, its attitudes like yours that will prolong the killings and keep this stupidity going on. You would think that after decades of fighting you would learn that who is at fault is not important. No, you don't want that and neither do both parties involved. All you want to do is place blame on each other and prolong this stupidity.
I need to "address the real issue". Yeah right, feel sorry for your people who openly support idiots that send there own people out strapped with bombs to kill innocent people. Why because you don't want to live next to jews because its your land right. Give me a break.
You can runaway from this discussion and maybe that is the best thing for you. I can see now that you are incapabable looking at the situation without your biased view.
It is "you" that needs to take a step back and put your emotions aside. All your doing is convincing more people of how ignorant you are. So go stockpile your propaganda it makes no difference. You are a lost cause.
Pathetic, seriously time for a new strategy. Your passive agressive attempt to gather sympathy is not working. As you may have figured out we are not as simple minded as you think.
We see right through you and your propaganda, your not fooling anybody.
And for the record I have no interest in supporting either side. I have no emotional attachment to this issue nor do I care which side wins. The only winner in this should be peace.
Anas Attia
quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
Perhaps what he meant to say was that there was never an ethnic or religious group or race called the "Palestinians" prior to the current state of Israel being formed. There was a general region called Palestine, but it was occupied by many different groups at many different times.
The "Palestinian", however, is a new invention. Before World War II, the geographical area that is presently Palestine was very sparsely populated and had virtually no agriculture or production at all. Simply put, it was barren before the Israeli settlers fixed it up, and no natives complained when they started to develop the land. In addition, most Palestinians today are actually not historical natives, they are refugees from neighbouring Arab countries like Jordan (who systematically slaughtered them in order to push them into Israeli territory).
There's been an area called Palestine for a while but not a state or nation. It was a generic name, like the "Middle East", and didn't refer to any specific commune or governing authority. As far as we know from recorded history, that area has just been scattered tribal villages or mere swamp hutches, which is exactly why the U.N. thought it would be a swell spot for Israel. Even the religious history, the Qu'ran, doesn't specifically mention a Palestinian people or state (to my knowledge, anyway).
There may or may not have been one or more states of Israel on that land; it doesn't really matter. Either way, today's Palestinians have no more historical claim to the land than Israelis do.
If you have it in your mind to ask for proof, then I'm sorry to say that the burden of proof is on you, because it is a logical impossibility to prove the non-existence of a thing. If you truly believe that Palestinians all belong to some ancient close-knit civilization then explain where you know this from.
It's all beside the point anyway because this isn't a land claim, it's holy war. Unfortunately, Israel and most of the western world has a hard time understanding holy war, so they prefer to treat it as a land claim. That mentality may be convenient but it will never end the war.
Ok from what I gather here, you are saying there was no ethnic or religious group or race called the "Palestinians" prior to the current state of Israel being formed.
OF course there was, at the current time it is estimated that 10 million Palestinians roam the earth. My family is one of them. Most of the Palestinians don't live in Palestine anymore obviously due to the "living conditions".
Palestinian territories: 3,760,000[1]
Jordan 2,700,000[2]
Israel 1,318,000
Syria 434,896
Lebanon 405,425
Chile 300,000
USA 67,842[11]
Egypt 70,245
Honduras 54,000[3]
Kuwait 50,000
Brazil 50,000[4]
Yemen 24,000[3]
Canada 23,975 (2006 Census)[5]
Australia 15,000
Colombia 12,000[3]
Guatemala 1,400[3]
If you want visit the following link to see who has taken over that area of land over the past couple of thousand years, doesn't matter who took it over, there is still a people called the Palestinians all throughout the conquests: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
Now that you know there is a people called Palestinians (falsteenien)... lets talk history...
In 1947, the first real war in the region erupted and Israel starts to form.
The following map shows the territories as sanctioned by the U.N. (don't want to get into the U.N.'s Decisions here)
Here is the map before the sanctioning occured:
Here is a video that will clear up what has happened in 1947
Now, lets go back even further, and look at a map showing the region before Israel was sanctioned. Here is a map that shows before and after.
You will see that the amount of space available to the Palestinians has shrunk, drastically... even after the sanction in 1947. It is still shrinking.
Please remember what the debate is about sir, its not about if palatinates existed.. its a human rights thing.. people are still being killed as I am typing this... its here, is now, and we need compassion not falls accusations. I don't have all day to prove every single word I say, after all this is TA, but I am trying, however none of you seem to bring up any sources or evidence in any of your arguments...
Anas Attia
quote:
Originally posted by HouseGuru
Your laughing at me...your quite comical dude. Like I said your like a little kid that holds his breath till he gets what he wants. Poor me...I'm crying inside because they are bombing my people. Did you ever wonder why? Maybe its because the lunatics that are supposed to represent your people are firing missiles. Are you seriously defending these fanatics? The only way you could get back any credibility is to denounce these idiots that support terror and work toward educating your people that they are wrong. You say its not about religion but I don't believe it for one second. This whole tragedy was brought about because of it. Who are you trying to kid.
Grow up, its attitudes like yours that will prolong the killings and keep this stupidity going on. You would think that after decades of fighting you would learn that who is at fault is not important. No, you don't want that and neither do both parties involved. All you want to do is place blame on each other and prolong this stupidity.
I need to "address the real issue". Yeah right, feel sorry for your people who openly support idiots that send there own people out strapped with bombs to kill innocent people. Why because you don't want to live next to jews because its your land right. Give me a break.
You can runaway from this discussion and maybe that is the best thing for you. I can see now that you are incapabable looking at the situation without your biased view.
It is "you" that needs to take a step back and put your emotions aside. All your doing is convincing more people of how ignorant you are. So go stockpile your propaganda it makes no difference. You are a lost cause.
Pathetic, seriously time for a new strategy. Your passive agressive attempt to gather sympathy is not working. As you may have figured out we are not as simple minded as you think.
We see right through you and your propaganda, your not fooling anybody.
And for the record I have no interest in supporting either side. I have no emotional attachment to this issue nor do I care which side wins. The only winner in this should be peace.
You have proven to me that you don't care about the issue, I don't get what your doing here.
Anas Attia
quote:
Originally posted by geroin
anas, instead of posting over and over again about how no one is listening to what you have to say can you please state in point form what exactly you're trying to say here (without videos please)?
from what i gathered so far
1. its a one sided war
2. israel is building a wall around palestine
3. people are left with no water and supplies
cool you've been paying attention ;) Im trying to drive the point home that the Palestinians are being occupied, and that you have to see it from their point of view. It is extremely hard to do this as were all so comfortable in our realities here.
So if you would like me to dumb it down to point form, I like your points so I'll elaborate.
1. The war in the middle east, is primary one sided, with a massive power on one end vs a small civilian force on the other. (small isn't the keyword here, its civilian)
2. Israel is building a wall much much bigger than that which was build in Berlin. I'm sure you all remember how happy everyone was when that was taken down.
3. The Palestinian people don't have control of their own land, water and food supplies. They are in a controlled environment run by their oppressors.
4. No media outlets are able to go into this controlled area, as Israel wont let them. Even Israelis living in Israel don't even have the slightest clue at the horrors being administered by their army.
5. Foreign aid to the Palestinians is extremely hindered, as well as postal mail and commerce.
6. The Palestinians virtually have no human rights... Period.
oh and geroin, the only reason I put up videos is basically due to the fact that I must convey such a large sum of information to rebuttal simple claims like "its the Palestinian's fault there is a wall around them" or "no such thing as Palestinian people"
ChemEnhanced
quote:
Originally posted by Anas Attia
cool you've been paying attention ;) Im trying to drive the point home that the Palestinians are being occupied, and that you have to see it from their point of view. It is extremely hard to do this as were all so comfortable in our realities here.
So if you would like me to dumb it down to point form, I like your points so I'll elaborate.
1. The war in the middle east, is primary one sided, with a massive power on one end vs a small civilian force on the other. (small isn't the keyword here, its civilian)
2. Israel is building a wall much much bigger than that which was build in Berlin. I'm sure you all remember how happy everyone was when that was taken down.
3. The Palestinian people don't have control of their own land, water and food supplies. They are in a controlled environment run by their oppressors.
4. No media outlets are able to go into this controlled area, as Israel wont let them. Even Israelis living in Israel don't even have the slightest clue at the horrors being administered by their army.
5. Foreign aid to the Palestinians is extremely hindered, as well as postal mail and commerce.
6. The Palestinians virtually have no human rights... Period.
oh and geroin, the only reason I put up videos is basically due to the fact that I must convey such a large sum of information to rebuttal simple claims like "no such thing as Palestinian people"
so to dumb it down even further....its like when whitey took the land from the redskins.
HouseGuru
quote:
Originally posted by Anas Attia
You have proven to me that you don't care about the issue, I don't get what your doing here.
Quite the contrary, I have every right to be here and express my views. Just by making a stupid statement like that you put yourself in the say realm as the fanatics that teach their young to hate because of religion.
The world belongs to no one. How righteous we are as humans to think that we are superior to every life form on the planet.
No respect for the basic life, no respect for the environment, and no respect for each other.
Its no wonder the world is in state of chaos. Even primates are not as violent as humans.
Its time to get over yourself and take a look around the world and see this is not an isolated issue. Be a part of the solution not the problem.
Anas Attia
quote:
Originally posted by ChemEnhanced
so to dumb it down even further....its like when whitey took the land from the redskins.
I think im begining to like you.... your almost necessary
ChemEnhanced
quote:
Originally posted by Anas Attia
I think im begining to like you.... your almost necessary
I'm like those little fish that follow the sharks around....I might be a pain in the ass but I do serve a purpose.
