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Israel bombs Gaza...again. (pg. 32)
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Perhaps what he meant to say was that there was never an ethnic or religious group or race called the "Palestinians" prior to the current state of Israel being formed. There was a general region called Palestine, but it was occupied by many different groups at many different times.
The "Palestinian", however, is a new invention. Before World War II, the geographical area that is presently Palestine was very sparsely populated and had virtually no agriculture or production at all. Simply put, it was barren before the Israeli settlers fixed it up, and no natives complained when they started to develop the land. In addition, most Palestinians today are actually not historical natives, they are refugees from neighbouring Arab countries like Jordan (who systematically slaughtered them in order to push them into Israeli territory).
There's been an area called Palestine for a while but not a state or nation. It was a generic name, like the "Middle East", and didn't refer to any specific commune or governing authority. As far as we know from recorded history, that area has just been scattered tribal villages or mere swamp hutches, which is exactly why the U.N. thought it would be a swell spot for Israel. Even the religious history, the Qu'ran, doesn't specifically mention a Palestinian people or state (to my knowledge, anyway).
There may or may not have been one or more states of Israel on that land; it doesn't really matter. Either way, today's Palestinians have no more historical claim to the land than Israelis do.
If you have it in your mind to ask for proof, then I'm sorry to say that the burden of proof is on you, because it is a logical impossibility to prove the non-existence of a thing. If you truly believe that Palestinians all belong to some ancient close-knit civilization then explain where you know this from.
It's all beside the point anyway because this isn't a land claim, it's holy war. Unfortunately, Israel and most of the western world has a hard time understanding holy war, so they prefer to treat it as a land claim. That mentality may be convenient but it will never end the war. |
You are wrong and misinforming everyone with your zionist propaganda.
Palestinians were always there. They are not a people who just "popped" up there after Israel was formed. How can Palestinians not be a people when their villages (over 500 of them that were cleasnsed after Israel was formed) have existed for hundreds of years?
Palestinians have accents, stories, heritage, lineage and history. They have a distinct culture. THey are Indigenous to that land. All arabs in that region were called "arabs" by europeans.
Within the arab world during the formation of Israel and even before the formation, Palestinians were known as PHILISTINES. Just becuase you europeans couldnt tell the difference doesnt mean they didnt exist as a people
Nevertheless, Palestine was NOT barren..
| quote: | According to Ottoman statistics studied by Justin McCarthy,[166] the population of Palestine in the early 19th century was 350,000, in 1860 it was 411,000 and in 1900 about 600,000 of which 94% were Arabs. In 1914 Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews.[167]
According to Howard Sachar, the Arab population of Palestine was about 260,000 in 1882. This number had doubled by 1914 and reached 600,000 by 1920 and 840,000 by 1931. Thus, between 1922 and 1946 the Arab population of Palestine increased by 118 percent, the highest rate of population growth among all Arab lands except Egypt.[168] McCarthy estimates the non-Jewish population of Palestine at 452,789 in 1882, 737,389 in 1914, 725,507 in 1922, 880,746 in 1931 and 1,339,763 in 1946.[169]
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Read Ilan Pappe's book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine". Hes a brave israeli professor who goes into detail about all the massacres of villages during the zionist campaign to cleanse palestine of its native population. |
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| Yohan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
You are wrong and misinforming everyone with your zionist propaganda.
Palestinians were always there. They are not a people who just "popped" up there after Israel was formed. How can Palestinians not be a people when their villages (over 500 of them that were cleasnsed after Israel was formed) have existed for hundreds of years?
Palestinians have accents, stories, heritage, lineage and history. They have a distinct culture. THey are Indigenous to that land. All arabs in that region were called "arabs" by europeans.
Within the arab world during the formation of Israel and even before the formation, Palestinians were known as PHILISTINES. Just becuase you europeans couldnt tell the difference doesnt mean they didnt exist as a people
Nevertheless, Palestine was NOT barren..
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Read Ilan Pappe's book "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine". Hes a brave israeli professor who goes into detail about all the massacres of villages during the zionist campaign to cleanse palestine of its native population. |
and the jews owned that land for many years too. so who has the rightful claim?
history seems to say whoever has the military might to enforce their claim |
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yohan
and the jews owned that land for many years too. so who has the rightful claim?
history seems to say whoever has the military might to enforce their claim |
And the Canaanites and Jebusites and the persians and the Turks.. and the greeks and the Romans..
Should they also have a right to take it from the Indigenous population? |
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| Yohan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
And the Canaanites and Jebusites and the persians and the Turks.. and the greeks and the Romans..
Should they also have a right to take it from the Indigenous population? |
hence my earlier assumption that claim to land based upon historical or even cultural pretext is too confusing |
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| infinity HiGH |
| quote: | | still does not excuse terrorism from Hamas or any terrorist groups on the behalf of palestinian people |
Dude stop spewing this righteous bull. Excuse or not, agree or not; many many people will resort to such tactics sooner or later if the conditions force them to. It's so easy for everyone here sitting in front of their computer in a nice air conditioned house to talk about how "wrong" Hamas is for "terrorizing" (everyone's favourite word these. Of course it only goes one way) the Israeli's but nobody ever takes into account the conditions that the Palestinians have been subjected to live in for the past few decades. |
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yohan
hence my earlier assumption that claim to land based upon historical or even cultural pretext is too confusing |
What about based on Indigenous populations?
That seems to be the trend for all nations on earth.. except the COLONIZED ones. ;) |
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| T_ALI |
| quote: | | Originally posted by Yohan |
dude, I read all ur posts in this thread and ur really starting to piss me off!!! ur nothing but a liar and a hypocrite, and a self-righteous prick who thinks he knows everything. |
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| Yohan |
| quote: | Originally posted by T_ALI
dude, I read all ur posts in this thread and ur really starting to piss me off!!! ur nothing but a liar and a hypocrite, and a self-righteous prick who thinks he knows everything. |
strong opinionated, yes.
liar and hypocrite?
lol. where? |
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| Yohan |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
What about based on Indigenous populations?
That seems to be the trend for all nations on earth.. except the COLONIZED ones. ;) |
and how do you define indigenous population? within what time period? because people move around. not to mention tribes merge and assimilate each other and whatnot, making cultural distinctions difficult |
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| Yohan |
| quote: | Originally posted by infinity HiGH
Dude stop spewing this righteous bull. Excuse or not, agree or not; many many people will resort to such tactics sooner or later if the conditions force them to. It's so easy for everyone here sitting in front of their computer in a nice air conditioned house to talk about how "wrong" Hamas is for "terrorizing" (everyone's favourite word these. Of course it only goes one way) the Israeli's but nobody ever takes into account the conditions that the Palestinians have been subjected to live in for the past few decades. |
i've already addressed this before, but I'll do it again.
no matter how righteous your cause may be, if you are willing to stoop the level of your oppressors in order to achieve your goals, you are NO BETTER than your oppressors. you give up your moral high ground.
do I understand why terrorist tactics are being employed by desperate people? of course. do I agree with their use? no
to use an analogy, if your family is starving, and you have no means of getting food, so you steal in order to feed your family.
do I understand why you would steal? yes. does this make it right that you're stealing? no |
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| Orko |
Guy 1: you are pro-Israel!
Guy 2: you are pro-Palestine!
Guy 1: you are just buying into Western propaganda!
Guy 2: you are just buying into Hamas propaganda!
Do you people actually think you will come to a consensus on this? What a joke. No matter how many 'facts' are brought out, the other side just is not willing to listen. |
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