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Israel bombs Gaza...again. (pg. 29)
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| Abercrombie |
| quote: | Originally posted by Adam420
Israel shouldn't bomb mosques while prayers are going on:mad:
That's just not cool, and prayers are always at the same time so it's not like they could say they don't know when they take place.
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I agree, that is just wrong. :whip:
| quote: | Originally posted by MarkT
as you point out, the rocket attacks cause little damage and almost no injury or loss of life...so what's the point?
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You are correct, Hamas's rockets have lost the lives and caused injuries of very little in comparison to the thousands they rained on Israel the last several years.
So what's the point? It does seem like a lot of wasted money on rockets that could be used to improve conditions. What they do cause is terror in those within range, because even though the rockets killing someone is infrequent, the fact they keep flying overhead and landing nearby in fields and some empty buildings or homes dozens of times per day can cause quite come anxiety.... who wants to play russian roulette, no matter what size the magazine (lack of better analogy).
| quote: | Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
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We do need a more recent map. The majority of Palestinians want the return to 1967 borders (though exactly where they are is a major block). I hope it works out so they can have their nation. identity, pride, peace with Israel, and peace with everybody else. |
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| VERTiG0 |
Here's what I don't get, and what really pisses me the off.
Protestors. Here, in Canada. In my own city. In my neighbouring cities.
These people and/or their families before them likely came here to escape the bull going on over there. WHY THE ARE YOU PROTESTING IT IN CANADA?
DON'T BRING YOUR BULL HERE. Leave it back there where it belongs. If you want to protest, get a goddamn plane ticket and do it where the action is. Don't muck up my city with your stupid bull.
That pisses me off so much. Canada has NOTHING to do with this, these people are wasting their time protesting, and I speak of both sides. |
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| Anton |
| quote: | Originally posted by VERTiG0
DON'T BRING YOUR BULL HERE. Leave it back there where it belongs. If you want to protest, get a goddamn plane ticket and do it where the action is. Don't muck up my city with your stupid bull.
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As much as I don't like seeing protesting on campus or on the streets, they do it because they want to bring attention to a cause they believe in. Geographic location doesn't really matter. Also, I think Canada does have something to do with it, obviously many Canadian citizens feel strongly about the issue. I think protests are healthy, even though walking by an angry mob on the way to class is a bit of a pain. |
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| infinity HiGH |
| quote: | | Honestly, is this guy for real? This has got to be one of the weakest arguments I've ever read. Effectively what he's saying is that terrorists who hide amongst civilians should be able to attack with impunity, and that any attempts to stop them are war crimes. And he suggests that the inaccuracy of the rockets at least partially justifies civilian casualties, ignoring the fact that they are being fired nowhere near a single target of military importance. |
Interesting twist. I think his point was that Hamas is condemned for it's actions yet Israel is supported for theirs when in reality, both sides are guilty of crimes against humanity. On top of that, everyone cries when 100's of rockets kill 1 person in Israel; but then when they hit back and kill 100's of people it's "ok" because they were fighting back.
| quote: | Originally posted by VERTiG0
Here's what I don't get, and what really pisses me the off.
Protestors. Here, in Canada. In my own city. In my neighbouring cities.
These people and/or their families before them likely came here to escape the bull going on over there. WHY THE ARE YOU PROTESTING IT IN CANADA?
DON'T BRING YOUR BULL HERE. Leave it back there where it belongs. If you want to protest, get a goddamn plane ticket and do it where the action is. Don't muck up my city with your stupid bull.
That pisses me off so much. Canada has NOTHING to do with this, these people are wasting their time protesting, and I speak of both sides. |
:haha: |
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| Orko |
| quote: | Originally posted by VERTiG0
Here's what I don't get, and what really pisses me the off.
Protestors. Here, in Canada. In my own city. In my neighbouring cities.
These people and/or their families before them likely came here to escape the bull going on over there. WHY THE ARE YOU PROTESTING IT IN CANADA?
DON'T BRING YOUR BULL HERE. Leave it back there where it belongs. If you want to protest, get a goddamn plane ticket and do it where the action is. Don't muck up my city with your stupid bull.
That pisses me off so much. Canada has NOTHING to do with this, these people are wasting their time protesting, and I speak of both sides. |
Completely agree with you. The simple fact that the two sides at Dundas square started getting hostile, should tell us that we need to end the bull here. Canada does not support the war. Canada has refugees and people who have fled the war from both sides, they are obviously here to make a peaceful life. Do not start going to war here too with your neighbors.
I have stayed out of this thread up until now, precisely because the war has nothing to do with me or my life here. That was until we had a stupid protest downtown, which (SHOCK!) ended with hostile crowds. |
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| rabbitjoker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Abercrombie
You are correct, Hamas's rockets have lost the lives and caused injuries of very little in comparison to the thousands they rained on Israel the last several years. |
Thanks to bomb shelters and early warning systems. |
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| rabbitjoker |
| quote: | Originally posted by jad
- A crippled economy, |
50 years of corrupt Palestinian governance is what has crippled the economy more than anything else. |
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| DigiNut |
This debate is way too tiring to keep writing detailed replies, so I'm resorting to point form here:
- Noam Chomsky was brilliant in his original field, but his political theories have always been highly suspect, as he cherry-picks his facts and tends to ignore context, particularly prior history.
- The map showing the "loss of Palestinian land" is misleading for several reasons:
* It suggests that there was a pre-existing Palestinian government when it was in fact controlled by the British, and earlier on was in pieces controlled by the various surrounding Arab powers.
* It ignores the actual population density - understandable on a territory map, but nevertheless gives a false impression of equal land use.
* The word "loss" suggests that it was somehow out of their hands. It's akin to a chart showing somebody's "loss of net worth" while they were investing 50% of their earnings in high-risk stocks and spending another 40% on drugs and booze.
* It doesn't show any other part of the region for context; that whole area is like a nickel on a football field.
- The notion of a return to pre-1967 borders is nonsensical because those areas are densely inhabited. It's impossible for those people to just pick up and leave, and it would also be nearly impossible for Israel to defend itself with those borders at this point. Can you really blame them for not trusting Palestine not to mount an attack from their new territory, when that is exactly what they've done with every other piece of recovered territory?
- Even if we could be 100% positive that such an agreement would completely end all hostilities, the idea of returning so much land after so many wars with no strings attached is unprecedented. It's like asking the U.S.A. to give Texas back to Mexico. Only with Israel does the rest of the world actually expect such massive concessions to be made.
- Once again, and it's unbelievable that I have to keep saying it, this isn't a land claim. That's a convenient way for westerners to frame it because it's easier for us to understand, but so-called loss of land is not the root cause of the fighting. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by djeso
How would you feel if someone came to your home, then invited more friends over, eventually taking over one of the rooms and declaring that now it belongs to them, at the same time taking even more. So now you go and fight for your right, but they take away your access to weapons, so no longer you can fight like a man, so you go and sacrifice yourself. |
Oh goody, I love the analogy game. Let's try a new one:
After searching for a couple of months in peak season, you and a few of your good buddies finally find a decent apartment in downtown Toronto for rent. You sign the lease and move in. It's in OK condition but you have to get a lot of repairs done. Other than that, everything is super for about a month.
Then the next day there's a couple of guys waiting at your door; they say they had some friends that were supposed to be moving in but had to wait until their old lease was up and that you're going to have to leave. You say hey, sorry guys, but this is the first I've heard of it, and you should've said something to me before I signed the lease, and we kind of like this place, and besides, I really don't think it's up to you guys because you don't own the building.
A couple of hours later you're just getting back from your grocery shopping and there's an angry mob at your door. Not realizing that two of your buddies are 3rd-degree black belts, they start a fight and subsequently get their asses whipped. You all tell the landlord what happened and he evicts them. You have some other friends that are now in the market so you tell them about the vacant apartment. They move in, everybody's happy.
Except it turns out that the old gang moved in on the floor below you and started telling everybody how you whipped their asses and forced them out, so a few weeks later an even bigger mob shows up with knives, but you aren't stupid, you saw this coming and started stocking up on baseball bats a week ago, and you call your friends from down the hall to help out and together you once again whip their asses and have them thrown out. Couple of days later you're talking to some more distant friends, acquaintances really, but you tell them what happened and they say hey, we actually just started looking for a place with some of our friends but we want to stay together, and you say that's great because they actually just evicted two tenants and you can both move in.
After a few more rounds of this, it's hard to remember anymore how it started, but everybody's in pretty rough shape physically and psychologically, so a bunch of you decide to go for drinks, talk things over. Everyone agrees firstmost that the feud has got to stop, but the devil's in the details. At the end they say look, we don't care anymore, our friends already found a different apartment, sorry for all the we caused and could we just get our original apartment back? And you say look, that's a very reasonable request but our close friends have been living there for like 8 months, and sure, you were there first, but they're there now and we can't just tell them to leave, and even if we did, it's not up to us, it's their decision. Dude says fine then, you, if we can't even have OUR pad back then we'll just make YOUR life hell until you move out, and leaves in a huff. End of negotiation.
Then one of your distant friends three floors down who moved in just a month ago says, screw this, I don't want to live here anymore getting harassed, I'm taking off. So you meet up again with Mr. and say hey, one of our posse just moved out, so as a sign of good faith we've told the landlord that he should give it back to the guy who was there before if he still wants it, and so maybe as a sign of good faith you and your posse could tone it down just a little. And he says that's great, now we're getting somewhere, but unfortunately that isn't _MY_ apartment and I'm still living in the 3B coat closet with Halitosis Hal, so I'll do what I can but I barely know half of these people and I'm still pretty f*ckin' pissed off myself.
And for a while things do settle down, but it's not long before everybody's forgotten about what just happened and the gang wars start again, and of course the guy you convinced the landlord to let back in is in on it too. So at that point you say, well this is bull, we throw these douchebags a bone and immediately they try to get us out on the street again. them, we're not doing any more favours.
And so on, and so forth, the saga continues.
Yes, this is an absurd analogy. Yes, it's completely one-sided. But it's more accurate than yours for at least three reasons:
1. It acknowledges the 3rd-party ownership of the original property;
2. It identifies the reason for the "occupation".
3. It reveals an actual escalation of hostilities as opposed to a mysterious land grab.
In the future, let's try not to oversimplify so much. |
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| Yohan |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Oh goody, I love the analogy game. Let's try a new one:
After searching for a couple of months in peak season, you and a few of your good buddies finally find a decent apartment in downtown Toronto for rent. You sign the lease and move in. It's in OK condition but you have to get a lot of repairs done. Other than that, everything is super for about a month.
Then the next day there's a couple of guys waiting at your door; they say they had some friends that were supposed to be moving in but had to wait until their old lease was up and that you're going to have to leave. You say hey, sorry guys, but this is the first I've heard of it, and you should've said something to me before I signed the lease, and we kind of like this place, and besides, I really don't think it's up to you guys because you don't own the building.
A couple of hours later you're just getting back from your grocery shopping and there's an angry mob at your door. Not realizing that two of your buddies are 3rd-degree black belts, they start a fight and subsequently get their asses whipped. You all tell the landlord what happened and he evicts them. You have some other friends that are now in the market so you tell them about the vacant apartment. They move in, everybody's happy.
Except it turns out that the old gang moved in on the floor below you and started telling everybody how you whipped their asses and forced them out, so a few weeks later an even bigger mob shows up with knives, but you aren't stupid, you saw this coming and started stocking up on baseball bats a week ago, and you call your friends from down the hall to help out and together you once again whip their asses and have them thrown out. Couple of days later you're talking to some more distant friends, acquaintances really, but you tell them what happened and they say hey, we actually just started looking for a place with some of our friends but we want to stay together, and you say that's great because they actually just evicted two tenants and you can both move in.
After a few more rounds of this, it's hard to remember anymore how it started, but everybody's in pretty rough shape physically and psychologically, so a bunch of you decide to go for drinks, talk things over. Everyone agrees firstmost that the feud has got to stop, but the devil's in the details. At the end they say look, we don't care anymore, our friends already found a different apartment, sorry for all the we caused and could we just get our original apartment back? And you say look, that's a very reasonable request but our close friends have been living there for like 8 months, and sure, you were there first, but they're there now and we can't just tell them to leave, and even if we did, it's not up to us, it's their decision. Dude says fine then, you, if we can't even have OUR pad back then we'll just make YOUR life hell until you move out, and leaves in a huff. End of negotiation.
Then one of your distant friends three floors down who moved in just a month ago says, screw this, I don't want to live here anymore getting harassed, I'm taking off. So you meet up again with Mr. and say hey, one of our posse just moved out, so as a sign of good faith we've told the landlord that he should give it back to the guy who was there before if he still wants it, and so maybe as a sign of good faith you and your posse could tone it down just a little. And he says that's great, now we're getting somewhere, but unfortunately that isn't _MY_ apartment and I'm still living in the 3B coat closet with Halitosis Hal, so I'll do what I can but I barely know half of these people and I'm still pretty f*ckin' pissed off myself.
And for a while things do settle down, but it's not long before everybody's forgotten about what just happened and the gang wars start again, and of course the guy you convinced the landlord to let back in is in on it too. So at that point you say, well this is bull, we throw these douchebags a bone and immediately they try to get us out on the street again. them, we're not doing any more favours.
And so on, and so forth, the saga continues.
Yes, this is an absurd analogy. Yes, it's completely one-sided. But it's more accurate than yours for at least three reasons:
1. It acknowledges the 3rd-party ownership of the original property;
2. It identifies the reason for the "occupation".
3. It reveals an actual escalation of hostilities as opposed to a mysterious land grab.
In the future, let's try not to oversimplify so much. |
BAHAHAHAHA!!! :stongue: |
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| ChemEnhanced |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Oh goody, I love the analogy game. Let's try a new one:
After searching for a couple of months in peak season, you and a few of your good buddies finally find a decent apartment in downtown Toronto for rent. You sign the lease and move in. It's in OK condition but you have to get a lot of repairs done. Other than that, everything is super for about a month.
Then the next day there's a couple of guys waiting at your door; they say they had some friends that were supposed to be moving in but had to wait until their old lease was up and that you're going to have to leave. You say hey, sorry guys, but this is the first I've heard of it, and you should've said something to me before I signed the lease, and we kind of like this place, and besides, I really don't think it's up to you guys because you don't own the building.
A couple of hours later you're just getting back from your grocery shopping and there's an angry mob at your door. Not realizing that two of your buddies are 3rd-degree black belts, they start a fight and subsequently get their asses whipped. You all tell the landlord what happened and he evicts them. You have some other friends that are now in the market so you tell them about the vacant apartment. They move in, everybody's happy.
Except it turns out that the old gang moved in on the floor below you and started telling everybody how you whipped their asses and forced them out, so a few weeks later an even bigger mob shows up with knives, but you aren't stupid, you saw this coming and started stocking up on baseball bats a week ago, and you call your friends from down the hall to help out and together you once again whip their asses and have them thrown out. Couple of days later you're talking to some more distant friends, acquaintances really, but you tell them what happened and they say hey, we actually just started looking for a place with some of our friends but we want to stay together, and you say that's great because they actually just evicted two tenants and you can both move in.
After a few more rounds of this, it's hard to remember anymore how it started, but everybody's in pretty rough shape physically and psychologically, so a bunch of you decide to go for drinks, talk things over. Everyone agrees firstmost that the feud has got to stop, but the devil's in the details. At the end they say look, we don't care anymore, our friends already found a different apartment, sorry for all the we caused and could we just get our original apartment back? And you say look, that's a very reasonable request but our close friends have been living there for like 8 months, and sure, you were there first, but they're there now and we can't just tell them to leave, and even if we did, it's not up to us, it's their decision. Dude says fine then, you, if we can't even have OUR pad back then we'll just make YOUR life hell until you move out, and leaves in a huff. End of negotiation.
Then one of your distant friends three floors down who moved in just a month ago says, screw this, I don't want to live here anymore getting harassed, I'm taking off. So you meet up again with Mr. and say hey, one of our posse just moved out, so as a sign of good faith we've told the landlord that he should give it back to the guy who was there before if he still wants it, and so maybe as a sign of good faith you and your posse could tone it down just a little. And he says that's great, now we're getting somewhere, but unfortunately that isn't _MY_ apartment and I'm still living in the 3B coat closet with Halitosis Hal, so I'll do what I can but I barely know half of these people and I'm still pretty f*ckin' pissed off myself.
And for a while things do settle down, but it's not long before everybody's forgotten about what just happened and the gang wars start again, and of course the guy you convinced the landlord to let back in is in on it too. So at that point you say, well this is bull, we throw these douchebags a bone and immediately they try to get us out on the street again. them, we're not doing any more favours.
And so on, and so forth, the saga continues.
Yes, this is an absurd analogy. Yes, it's completely one-sided. But it's more accurate than yours for at least three reasons:
1. It acknowledges the 3rd-party ownership of the original property;
2. It identifies the reason for the "occupation".
3. It reveals an actual escalation of hostilities as opposed to a mysterious land grab.
In the future, let's try not to oversimplify so much. |
you won't believe it but this exact thing happened to a friend of a friend of mine. The is still going down. |
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