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Edm Genres? (pg. 10)
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| Xenocreator_PG_ |
Desert Trance
Train Wreck Trance
EMO Trance
Bootscoot trance. |
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| Hydarnes |
Ishkur,
Well well, it looks like the disagreements continue. It's unfortunate that I typed out an entire reply only to accidentally click the back button and lose all of my hard work. On the second time around, this will have to be far more succinct.
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Yes you are. And what's loosely about it? It's cut and dry. ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT == ELECTRONIC MUSIC. How hard is that to understand? How much simpler must we make it for you? Do you have trouble buttoning yourself in the morning or breathing with your mouth closed? |
As much as you would really like to believe this, I'm afraid it isn't the case. There is, IN FACT, "loose" and "strict" forms of EM whether you accept this or not. For instance, pop and rock can loosely fit under the umbrella of "EM", but they cannot be regarded in the same strict a sense as those forms of EM which overwhelmingly employ synthesizers. When it comes to music, things are never quite as black and white as you would like to believe.
| quote: | | I haven't said anything about electronic DANCE music. I've only specifically talked about electronic music. It's not "in a sense", Logical Fallacy Man. They are. Period. You cannot dispute this. |
Maybe it didn’t occur to you that this might just be your very problem.
For the record, my initial stance had nothing to do with EM in general but EDM. I’m really sorry that your own cognitive dissonance has played such a tragic role in disconnecting you from the relevant portions of this dialogue.
I think it's reasonable to conclude that your failure in comprehending the very nature of this controversy can be readily understood by the fact that you didn't even bother to find out what my original argument was before hastening to disparage my position. I think it’s rather unfortunate that you've ended up contending with a straw man instead.
Of course I don't dispute that hip-hop and rap can be recognized as forms of "EM", but I wasn't talking about "EM", I was talking about EDM. It's a shame that these terms have been so interchangeably used that people are starting to lose capability in discerning what the whole argument is about.
The terms "EM" and "EDM" have gotten so muddled in this thread that the current state of things shouldn't be altogether surprising. But I'll try my best to pick up the pieces.
| quote: | | (and besides, I dance to hip hop. Don't you?) |
Not only does it not afford me a remote feeling of wanting to dance, it's just as annoying as heavy metal to me. So no, of course I don't. But this isn’t why I think it should be considered in the same category with the others.
| quote: | | I don't do this. I don't know anyone who does this. Who does this? You do this? Because you hang out on this site, you think everyone in the world does this? ....check your premises. The world is not defined by what you like and don't like. It is defined by what it is, regardless of your cultural insecurities. |
Well in that case I might as well conclude that there's no disagreement between us whatsoever! I mean, seriously, if you’re so thoroughly incapable of noticing that to place Rap and Hip-hop along with Eurodance, Trance, House and Techno under the title "EDM" inevitably associates all of the styles, then I'm afraid your reasoning capabilities have reached a serious recession.
| quote: | | Hip hop sounds closer to electro, jungle, trip hop, and breaks than it does trance. Are you going to expel them too? 15 years ago, it was closer to techno and house, and trance barely existed. It's been around for 30 years. It's not going to be divorced from the electronic music family just because trance showed up. |
Again, this is a matter of degrees in style difference. Just because a style from one genre sounds closer to a style from another genre does not automatically make it in the same category. I admit there's a lot of subjectivity involved with categorizing music. But there's certainly enough merit in the fact that rap and hip-hop stand very stylistically apart from the majority of EDM forms to separate them.
| quote: | Hip hop invented DJing. Without Kool Herc, you wouldn't be listening to trance today.
Your biases are clearly evident and completely moot, you don't need to clarify them. They are neither useful nor admissable as evidence in this argument.
(pssst...eurodance came from hip hop. It bubbled out of the recesses of the gay house scene (italo divas) of the late 80s, merging with rap and chicago house. It is yet another one of those 'black music co-opted by whites' things) |
It's interesting you should bring this up, because I happened to be doing a little research on the origins of "Electronic Music" and I found a site that does an interesting job of tracing dance/trance/techno/house to its origins and I found virtually NOTHING that connects hip-hop or rap with the current mentioned styles (i.e Eurodance, Trance, House, Techno).
"After Disco, electronic dance music flourished. It became commonplace to hear songs produced with synthesizers during the 80s and early 90s. Over the years Disco became replaced by another form of electronic dance music, House. House was also characterized by a pounding four to the floor beat, and quickly swept the world as the popular dance music of choice. Other forms of electronic music quickly surfaced, from Trance and Techno, to Breakbeats and Drum and Bass. Today, electronic music has found it’s way into many aspects of our life, from common Pop, Hip-Hop, and Rock music, to radio and TV adds, movie scores, and television soundtracks, to classical scores reproduced using electronic instruments. So, next time you hear someone say there’s nothing to electronic music other than some bleeps and boops, be sure to tell them that the majority of the music they here today is electronic, and they have a person by the name of Elisha Gray to thank for creating the first electronic musical instrument."
It seems very clear from reading through this whole article that the defining moment was Disco for styles such as Dance, House, Trance and Techno, NOT RAP OR HIP-HOP as you so ill-advisedly allege. And although I will admit that they did sometimes influence DJs from time to time there was no major role in carving out these styles as you would have our readers believe.
I find a much greater resemblance with songs from the 70s group Abba and today's European trance scene than I do with the following wave of rap and hip-hop that was to endlessly plague the world.
BTW, notice the parts in the article where it includes pop and rock as "EM"--SURPRISE!!! What's even more interesting is that the only mention of "hip hop" in the whole article finds itself clumped together with the pop and rock, not the other stricter forms of EM.
You can read the full article here:
http://www.djforums.com/articles/03...onichistory.php
But let us assume, arguendo, that Hip-Hop and Rap DID form the early basis for the different forms of EDM that we have today. Would this constitute sufficient reason for putting them all in the same package as you are proposing? Of course not. Why? Because I could just as easily contend that rap and hip-hop find some of their roots in rock music, but does this make them one and the same? Hello!? Of course not! Just because one style of music may derive from another doesn't mean that musical evolution is going to stop. Styles of music eventually change into something vastly different from what their origins used to be—often dictating sufficient reason to separate the two.
| quote: | | At the moment, the only scene I see standing on its own with its separate fans is trance. I can go into any well-rounded electronic music nightclub or party, and they play all sorts of . It's great stuff. But you go to a trance party....and it's nothing but eurotrance, all night long. And nothing but. It's among the most anal-retentive, obstinately stubborn and closed-minded scenes that exist right now. All eurotrance or nothing. There are clubs I know now that refuse to play trance, because it attracts the annoying trancecrackers who try to ask for requests and get pissed off when any other music other than trance is played. Too much headache. They just can't be bothered with this uptight scene anymore. Go home, trancetards. Electronic music doesn't want you here. |
Actually, you'll find that virtually ANYONE that likes trance also likes Eurodance and finds most of the other forms of EDM more or less acceptable. Eurodance is what first got me into the whole scene. This doesn’t mean I particularly enjoy all forms of EDM, but they all share common similarities.
You seem to have a serious grudge against trance music, could it be that you're patroling the wrong forum?
| quote: | | Your point is that you want to divide things along cultural and emotional lines rather than logically and rationally, but your problem is you've had your own nose stuck up your ass for so long you fail to notice the changing winds could easily blow any which way, marking a severe shift in attitudes and perceptions. Social inertia is funny like that. So to prevent that from happening, argue WHAT THINGS ARE, not what you want them to be.....using an objective, rational, consistent basis. Wishing something is something else doesn't make it so. |
I'm not dividing anything. The music divides itself over time. If you have a problem accepting this, then don't be surprised if no one takes you seriously.
| quote: | | One of your more stupid arguments was dismissing rap because it had nothing but percussion, failing to understand that not only does trance have the same thing, but, being electronic, it doesn't really mean a whole lot to either genre. |
And now you return to your straw man. I have to say, that of all your incessantly generated falsehoods THIS has got to be the most blatantly fabricated and outrageous I’ve heard yet!!! Not only did I not make such a statement, but I've never even thought about it. Obviously what defines rap is the rapid talking, not the background beat.
| quote: | | Now you know, and knowing is half the battle. Would you like me to smack you in the back of the head next time? |
At least I'll suffer the concussion knowing my position is less erroneous.
| quote: | | My music guide has 180 genres on it. Under your direction, about 120 of them would be completely slashed away because they don't sound like the music you like. That includes practically the entire breakbeat, jungle and downtempo sections, and serious chunks of techno, house, Industrial and IDM. |
Let's hear it for hollow assumptions everyone! |
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| fuct4less |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
f4life, |
Amusing. :D
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Seeing that you're already understanding the endless debate potential, I don't think it's really necessary to delve into it. I would if I knew some fruit would come out of it.
I completely agree with your rationale about "eurodance" and the fact that it serves as a more apt general term to include all of the other styles related to it.
Incidentally, this similarity argument is the same basis for why I believe rap, hip-hop and new age music should be officially excluded from the other categories because they are not close enough in "likeable" nature as the other styles of music. Someone who likes eurodance is very likely to find trance appealing, and the same with house and techno. This ISN'T the case with rap, hip-hop and new age, period! So although they all, in the most technical definition of the term, fall under this umbrella, THEY SHOULD not be considered in the same category, and "EDM" is generally understood as eurodance, trance, house, techno etc, not new age, rap or hip hop. |
This, mind you, isn't necessarily the case, as there is often a good deal of dispute between the genres. I remember a couple years back there was a techno website marketing a t-shirt with the phrase " trance" on it (it was something of that nature, I don't quite remember exactly what it was, though), and this is but one example. Though the electronic music community has generally leaned towards the promotion of an exceptence of various sounds in an attempt to be inclusive, there are still many house fans who, I am sure, dislike trance, trance fans who dislike techno, techno fans who dislike DnB, DnB fans who like downtempo, and downtempo fans who dislike breaks. Even within the genres there are those dislike various other subgenres. Take trance for example; many hard "trance" fans dislike progressive trance and vice-versa. Even within the subgenres of the subgenres, Hydarnes, can you find people disliking other sounds. Take myself for instance. I consider myself a fan of the early Goa trance sound, but despise psytekk.
Even so, hip-hop does indeed deserve a place alongside house and techno, as the three genres, in their earlier forms, sounded very much alike. Hip-hop and techno, in particular, are sibling genres as they both derived heavily from electro in their beginning stages. Even the driving concepts are the same: to bring people together, have fun, be tolerant, and dance. And, as Sykonee and System-J pointed out earlier, the three were often mixed together (and they were done so quite well, I might add) along with other genres.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Notwithstanding the definition that MY VERY OWN SOURCE provided (which, in the very technical sense of the word would include new age, rap and hip hop)--IT EXCLUDED ALL THREE FROM THE LIST. Why? Simple! Because they don't fit in a bona fide way like the rest do! |
Alternatively, it could be that maybe, just maybe due to the fact that they don't even have pages for those genres. I looked under their breaks section yesterday afternoon in an attempt to see if they actually had a hip-hop page, but despite a brief mention as being one of breakbeat's predecessors it seems they don't have anything. As for new age, they don't even mention it. As I said in my previous post, your point is moot, I'm afraid.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
I'm sorry but taking this forum and observing the fact that most in this thread seem to be supporting the inclusion is nowhere near tantamount to making it logically "correct". |
You are quite correct, sir. As we both know, taking a small, isolated example and applying it to a greater whole is a big no no. This, however, was not my intention. Albeit there have been a few who have stated that hip-hop should be excluded from EDM for whatever reasons they may have, your statement that hip-hop isn't electronic music has been widely contested. In case you've forgotten, this is tranceaddict.com, not folkadict.com and thusly you are far apt to find someone here who is well versed in electronic music, as trance is a form of electronic music (not to mention this forum encourages the musical debate to exceed the boundaries of trance to the greater whole of EDM, as well as other forms of music). To be frank, I find it much more probable that you'll find such a person on TA than looking for answers in some horde of MTV-whores.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
But you missed the fact that the REASON WHY the masses don't consider them all in the same bundle IS BECAUSE THEY AREN'T READILY SIMILAR ENOUGH, EVEN THOUGH THEY EMPLOY SYNTHESIZERS (just like New Age does)--this renders ample reason to exclude them (as our musical sources have done) for the purpose of not perpetuating unnecessary musical confusion. You know, if we can just get through a couple hurdles I'm confident we can see eye to eye on this. ;) |
Yes, but the mainstream has proved itself time and time again to be dangerously prone to making giant misconceptions about ... well, practically everything. In the media's eyes, anything electronic is instantly techno, any band who wears ripped clothing and has tattoos is punk, any artist that takes advantage of broken chords, aggressive music, and (often) dissonant vocals is metal. This, of course, isn't always true.
To expound upon the latter example, many people I know often think of metal as nothing more than the aforementioned traits and would most likely dismiss anything that didn't conform to such an archetype. If I were to have such an individual sit down and listen to one of Vintersorg's more folk-oriented works, they'd probably classify it as folk. Despite the difference in sound, Vintersorg and other kin bands are accepted into the metal community due to the driving concepts being the same. The same goes for hip-hop and new age. |
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| LeiWM06 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
As much as you would really like to believe this, I'm afraid it isn't the case. There is, IN FACT, "loose" and "strict" forms of EM whether you accept this or not. For instance, pop and rock can loosely fit under the umbrella of "EM", but they cannot be regarded in the same strict a sense as those forms of EM which overwhelmingly employ synthesizers. When it comes to music, things are never quite as black and white as you would like to believe.
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So... what is your definition of EDM?? European Dance, Trance, House, and Techno?? I'm sorry, just because these are popular in Europe, they're really NOT encompassing of EDM. In fact they've evolved seperately. Just because they are popular today and MOST ignorant peopel think that that's all EDM is doesn't make it true.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Well in that case I might as well conclude that there's no disagreement between us whatsoever! I mean, seriously, if you’re so thoroughly incapable of noticing that to place Rap and Hip-hop along with Eurodance, Trance, House and Techno under the title "EDM" inevitably associates all of the styles, then I'm afraid your reasoning capabilities have reached a serious recession.
Again, this is a matter of degrees in style difference. Just because a style from one genre sounds closer to a style from another genre does not automatically make it in the same category. I admit there's a lot of subjectivity involved with categorizing music. But there's certainly enough merit in the fact that rap and hip-hop stand very stylistically apart from the majority of EDM forms to separate them.
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No, just because hip-hop doesn't sound like a part of EDM that you listen to doesn't make them not part of EDM.
We're mamals right? Your argument goes like this: humans are mamals, and because we're numerous, mamals must just be humans or things that looks like humans. So you have mistakenly took all Primates as mamals. When someone metions that Dolphins are infact mamals as well you jump on them because they don't look humans at all. But they infact are mamals.
EDM isn't just trance, Eurodance, house, and techno... it's a much bigger umbrella. Perhaps trance, Eurodance, house and techno belong to a subcatagory that hip-hop does not belong to, but EDM is not this catagory. And believe me, even though there are EDM websites on the internet, they seldom covers the entire thing.
Hip-Hop is part of EDM! |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
There is, IN FACT, "loose" and "strict" forms of EM whether you accept this or not.
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Please, by all means...explain.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
For instance, pop and rock can loosely fit under the umbrella of "EM"
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Name one.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
For the record, my initial stance had nothing to do with EM in general but EDM.
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*shrug* I dance to hip hop. Don't you?
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Of course I don't dispute that hip-hop and rap can be recognized as forms of "EM"
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Thank you. This argument's over. You lose.
The rest of your post is full of so much wrong I don't have time to go through it. Someone else is free to, however. |
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| JakeC |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Name one.
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Kylie Minougue - Cant Get You Out Of My Head |
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| Ishkur |
That's rock music?
Holy , I got this thing all wrong then. |
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| JakeC |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
That's rock music?
Holy , I got this thing all wrong then. |
Kylie minogue covers the pop side.
Kasabian Cover the rock side. |
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| Ishkur |
Ahh....I thought that meant pop rock. Pop itself is a muddy term.
It's not a genre, per se, in that it doesn't embody any distinct method, behavior, style or consistent sound that appeals to a select audience, but rather is reflective of the paradigm of "popular" music, that is, music that sells a lot of records and hence appeals to everybody, or at least most of them. Pop music doesn't have any convictions. It is whatever's on the charts right now. Whether that is rock, soul, funk, house, trance, hip hop, classical, jazz or folk doesn't matter to it. Additional terms have been added to it to further define this music. Pop Rock, Pop Punk, Pop R&B, etc...but anything that sells a lot of copies is pop music.
Kylie Minogue is electronic music. Kasabian is not. Neither are The Killers or LCD Soundsystem or Franz Ferdinand or any of the other indie acts lately employing a synth or two. |
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| JakeC |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Ahh....I thought that meant pop rock. Pop itself is a muddy term.
It's not a genre, per se, in that it doesn't embody any distinct method, behavior, style or consistent sound that appeals to a select audience, but rather is reflective of the paradigm of "popular" music, that is, music that sells a lot of records and hence appeals to everybody, or at least most of them. Pop music doesn't have any convictions. It is whatever's on the charts right now. Whether that is rock, soul, funk, house, trance, hip hop, classical, jazz or folk doesn't matter to it. Additional terms have been added to it to further define this music. Pop Rock, Pop Punk, Pop R&B, etc...but anything that sells a lot of copies is pop music.
Kylie Minogue is electronic music. Kasabian is not. Neither are The Killers or LCD Soundsystem or Franz Ferdinand or any of the other indie acts lately employing a synth or two. |
Kasabian use drum machines and synths and a couple of guitars.
and by you conviction they are EDM as they play using mainly with synths and play to a drum machine.
another example would be pop will eat itself. |
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| LeiWM06 |
Actually she's closer to Eurodance than others...
I mean even Britney Spears will use EDM elements in her song some times. Toxic is a good example.
Now is it EDM? I guess they must be... or atleast partly...
I mean techinques and music cross over. There are EDM that songs like pop, there bound to be pop songs that sound like EDM. |
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| JakeC |
| quote: | Originally posted by LeiWM06
Actually she's closer to Eurodance than others...
I mean even Britney Spears will use EDM elements in her song some times. Toxic is a good example.
Now is it EDM? I guess they must be... or atleast partly...
I mean techinques and music cross over. There are EDM that songs like pop, there bound to be pop songs that sound like EDM. |
but what defines an EDM element?
what does toxic contain this is "EDM"? |
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