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Edm Genres? (pg. 37)
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
The Roots
K-OS
DL Incognito
Immortal Technique
Wyclef
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I love Questlove as much as the next guy, but in all honesty, their studio efforts are still sequenced. And they still carry along a DJ with backing tracks in their live shows.
And besides, the exception doesn't prove the rule. For every The Roots, there are ten Jermaine Dupris. You cannot dispute this. What you should've done to knock out some rock solid, unignorable proof is, instead of picking out individuals and making sweeping generalizations for the whole based on a few rather mild characteristics they possess, you need to cite whole TRENDS, PUSHES, and WHOLE MOVEMENTS that divorce the style of music from its origins and its intent.
I could say that trance is not EDM because Andain used a real bass guitar on Beautiful Things. Is that correct? No. But it's the same argument you're using. I could say that jungle is not EDM because Roni Size had a real band on Reprezant. Is that correct? No. But it's the same mistake you're making.
DJing is championed most by hip hop. The best DJs in the world are all hip hop DJs. Sampling is championed by hip hop. There are more samples in hip hop than in any other genre of music. The TR-808 drum machine, aka the most popular drum machine in the history of electronic music, is the original beast that gave hip hop and electro it's distinctive sound. All of these things are electronic music canon; standards of the music. And now you want to eliminate them because it's made by black guys, and they rap on top of it.
You still haven't said anything about breaks and jungle--cousins of hip hop. Are they EDM too? Or should I just consult you for now on every time I make an update to the guide?
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Sheer baloney and you know it.
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If it's sheer baloney, then you should easily have mountains of evidence and justification for your reasoning.
We're still waiting.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Tell me, how on earth does me saying that rap doesn’t rely on electronic instruments HAVE ANYTHING to do with trance, house and techno NOT requiring electronic production? My subsequent statement was only saying that Trance house and Techno sometimes use instruments IN ADDITION to the electronics.
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And hip hop doesn't? ....Do you have any idea how hip hop is made, or are you just guessing?
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
THANK YOU! Pull the plug, and you’ve still got rap.
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Pull the plug, and you got vocals/rapping. That's not EDM, that's acapella. It's not anything. Whether it's a guy blathering away about his rims or some silly tart whining about castles in the sky....it doesn't mean anything.
THINK....in terms of MUSICAL PRODUCTION.
Okay, go. |
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| Abhay |
do u ppl consider an electronic/bass guitar to be an electronic instumen?
Yes/No... why not???
Please draw the line....
we're pretty much debating about Jargon... something which is just local bull talk... terms used to make life easier...
it's not something u can scientifically, or logically define with ease... because that's not how the terms were created in teh first place...
some things don't have logic behind them.... accept it... |
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| Abhay |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiesto14
no it's a culture!
WHy would i buy anything?
Don;t u have to go watch Lleyton Hewitt fail miserably then stick it to your joey? |
u always turn to the
"I am better, becasue i've been around longer"..
then start acting like it, and stop usign racial slurrs.... |
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| Abhay |
| quote: | Originally posted by sandstorm03
What are you bitching about? I clearly said that Sasha & Digweed are probably the most intelligent djs out there, and they don't play trance.
Did i say anywhere what they do play? |
my point was simply that teh music some ppl claim to be more "intellgent", can't even be defined by the very ppl who think it's more "intellgent"... if that's possible.. so I question whether it's "intelligent" after all.... |
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| SYSTEM-J |
Hip-hop can be instrumental.
I think that should wind the argument down. Listen to DJ Shadow, or any instrumental hip-hop artist for proof (I'm sure someone can make a list)
In addition: rap is merely a type of vocal. Look up "rock music" in an English dictionary if you want, but that definition would make almost all music rock music. Rapping is a form of vocal that has appeared on a huge variety of musical genres over the past twenty years. Are the Red Hot Chili Peppers or Rage Against the Machine rap? No, but they used rapping in their tracks. Similarly, Snap!, 2 Unlimited, The KLF, Faithless, The Prodigy, The Chemical Brothers and Leftfield have all used rapping in their music. Does this make them rap? No. And don't argue that they only used rapping as an exception to the general rule, as RATM have never released a track that didn't have rapping in it.
If you took away all the electronic instruments from a hip-hop track you'd have rapping. This could make it a nu-metal track, a house track, a jungle track or even a "pop" track. Hip-hop is not defined by its use of rapping. Hip-hop in its original form was just a looped break. MCs rapping over that gave birth to rap. Hip-hop is essentially a looped break, and since it was made that break has always been performed on electronic instruments. So rapping on its own does not constitute a genre.
Here's a nice little test. Take Firestarter by The Prodigy. Remove all the electronic instruments from it. You still have a guitar and a vocal. By your logic, Firestarter is punk rock, not EDM.
Hip-hop is the musical genre, and the English dictionary isn't going to win any arguments. Is trance in there as a style of music? Nope, according to the English dictionary, trance doesn't exist.
Have you really any reply to this other than quoting a misinformed website that will try to tell me rap is the genre, while ignoring all the examples of rapped vocals in other styles of music? |
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| sandstorm03 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Abhay
my point was simply that teh music some ppl claim to be more "intellgent", can't even be defined by the very ppl who think it's more "intellgent"... if that's possible.. so I question whether it's "intelligent" after all.... |
Its not the music they play, its how they play the music... |
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| auranaut |
| quote: | Originally posted by Abhay
do u ppl consider an electronic/bass guitar to be an electronic instumen?
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No, it's still an acoustic instrument, it just requires electrical amplification. Well, not 'acoustic', but you know what I mean. |
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| paranoik0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Hip-hop can be instrumental.
I think that should wind the argument down. Listen to DJ Shadow, or any instrumental hip-hop artist for proof (I'm sure someone can make a list)
In addition: rap is merely a type of vocal. Look up "rock music" in an English dictionary if you want, but that definition would make almost all music rock music. Rapping is a form of vocal that has appeared on a huge variety of musical genres over the past twenty years. Are the Red Hot Chili Peppers or Rage Against the Machine rap? No, but they used rapping in their tracks. Similarly, Snap!, 2 Unlimited, The KLF, Faithless, The Prodigy, The Chemical Brothers and Leftfield have all used rapping in their music. Does this make them rap? No. And don't argue that they only used rapping as an exception to the general rule, as RATM have never released a track that didn't have rapping in it.
If you took away all the electronic instruments from a hip-hop track you'd have rapping. This could make it a nu-metal track, a house track, a jungle track or even a "pop" track. Hip-hop is not defined by its use of rapping. Hip-hop in its original form was just a looped break. MCs rapping over that gave birth to rap. Hip-hop is essentially a looped break, and since it was made that break has always been performed on electronic instruments. So rapping on its own does not constitute a genre.
Here's a nice little test. Take Firestarter by The Prodigy. Remove all the electronic instruments from it. You still have a guitar and a vocal. By your logic, Firestarter is punk rock, not EDM.
Hip-hop is the musical genre, and the English dictionary isn't going to win any arguments. Is trance in there as a style of music? Nope, according to the English dictionary, trance doesn't exist.
Have you really any reply to this other than quoting a misinformed website that will try to tell me rap is the genre, while ignoring all the examples of rapped vocals in other styles of music? |
thank you sir, after this post i don't think there can be any doubt left.. |
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| sandstorm03 |
| quote: | The idea of an Hip Hop retrospective may at first sound a tad preposterous. The mutations, output and dominance of the genre have become such that encompassing what used to be called the Hip-Hop nation in a unique dynamic has simply become impossible.
Instead Tigersushi would, humbly, like to introduce you to its walkthrough through Hip Hop, a musical journey made of skips, bumps, U-turns, history reinvention and dead-ends, our own question mark-shaped foray into Hip Hop territory. What is Hip Hop? Though the origin of the word is unknown, Hip Hop is universally described as the conjunction of four main artforms : tagging/ graffiti/ spraypainting, deejeaying, breakdancing and emceeing. Though the latter remains the most represented genre in the mainstream media, the importance of the four disciplines and of their interconnections is crucial.
Tagging, Spraypainting or Graffitis are accordingly the first Hip Hop artforms to emerge in the late seventies when a young New Yorker began tagging the walls of New York with his pseudonym Taki 183 a combination of his name -Taki- and his street address -183rd Street.
Before consolidating as merely tagging and spraypainting, graffiti art in the late seventies and early eighties was extremely diverse ranging from mere tag-marks and political slogans to complete frescos and artworks ; one of the most famous artist to emerge from this scene is probably Jean Michel Basquiat.
Hip-Hop deejaying owes a lot to the original jamaïcan dancehall and sound system scene. In the absence of regular venues, Jamaïcan Deejays set up impessive mobile sound systems designed for open-air parties. The scene developed from the jazz-tinged beginnings of the mid forties and early fifties to rocksteady, ska, reggae and rubadub. Jamaïcan deejays such as founder of Studio One Clement Coxsone introduced now widespread practices such as mixing up records, speaking over records with a microphone which ultimately turned into toasting heralding today's emceeing. In New York, a young Jamaïcan expat, Kool Dj Herc launched his own sound system and began cutting the breaks of seventies hits to obtain a purely rhythmic combination with a technique quite similar to that of Disco Deejays such as Nicky Siano. Herc also inaugurated scratching and mixing two identical copies of one Lp so that the breaks could be prolongated by a simple drop of the needle at the right time. Many talented Hip Hop Deejays appeared shortly therafter among them most notorious is probably Grandmaster Flash who illustrated all these techniques on his famous Grandmaster On the Wheels of Steel
Breakdance is chielfy a dance designed to accompany the breaks produced by the Deejays. Explaining the various figures of breakdancing might be a bit difficult but a sound overview would be to describe breakdancing as the synthesis between street art -mimes, robotic moves- and folk dances or martial arts such as Brazilian Capoeira.
Finally emceeing -as in Master of Ceremony- is basically a celebration of the gift of gab . Lyrics are uttered according to a staccato-like rhythmical patterns, the voice -at least before KRS One explored other ways- was supposed to adapt to the beat and breaks mimicking their structure in its every rhyme.
One of the first Hip Hop era raps to emerge was probably Sugarhill Gang's Rapper's Delight a massive 1979 hit that featured an uncanny rap about damaged food and an irresistible bass+guitar loop taken from Chic's Good Times. The origin of rap however is probably more ancient than that, as Saul Williams pointed out, it can be traced back in blues, slavery songs, jailhouse toasts or what is called dozens, oratory contests opposing two individuals and where wisely elaborated puns concerning the opponent's family are used as the main weapon. Those are the distant ancesters of raps.
The closer forebears being famous black orators from the sixties such as Malcom X whose taste for cuting edge rhetorics illustrated by everyday example - "You can't hate the roots of a tree and not hate the tree"- will be endlessly recycled in conscious raps. But also Cassius Clay aka Muhamad Ali who made a ritual of taking the piss out of his opponents in incredibly cheeky inflammatory raps the best probably being the ones addressed to George Foreman.
Many talented musicians of the seventies made rap incursions or prefigured the art of emceeing among them one might quote Gil Scott Heron or the politically enraged The Last Poets : "We started on the square and ended up in the corner".
Thus, folklore, poetry and politics -the five percenters contributed a lot to the rap vocabulary- can equally be proposed as close relatives to the early rap style. However, in the 1980's the minds were still set on celebration music, it was the time of block parties, the conscious emcees or the infamous gangsters came long afterwards.
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| Hydarnes |
JakeC to the rescue!
| quote: | no they do use synthesizers.
Immortal Technique - Dance With The Devil
Wyclef ft. The Rock - It Doesnt Matter
thats just two examples.
Rap is a genre of music aswell as a form of poetry. Hip Hop is also a style of music which is most of the time is joined together with rap. |
Listing the groups that create rap without synthesizers is not tantamount to saying that every single one of their productions must fall in that category—-it merely proves testament to the existence of rap using traditional instruments, contrary to the constantly false assertions being made here. This is a tenuous face-saving device, even by your standards.
I really mean it when I say that it would do your credibility well to just concede. Ranting on about this in the vague hope that you might get in a last blow isn’t really going to salvage the vessel.
As for your new definition of Hip-Hop, you're wrong. The authorities disagree with you, as do I.
Ishkur,
| quote: | | I love Questlove as much as the next guy, but in all honesty, their studio efforts are still sequenced. And they still carry along a DJ with backing tracks in their live shows. |
Accounting your ever-evolving definitions of terms, you might want to tell me what you mean by "electronically sequenced", as it is obvious you’re hanging on to this pretense of hope for dear life in the wake of an ever collapsing case.
| quote: | | And besides, the exception doesn't prove the rule. |
This is a masterpiece of manipulation you’ve managed to slip in. You must either think that we're totally out of our wits or just plain stupid to not notice when you start deliberately altering the very rules that you yourself have set up to define what EDM constitutes and what does not.
Quoting YOU:
“Music that relies entirely on electronic instruments is electronic. I've said that since day 1. You pull the plug, the music stops. End of story, and this argument, which you lost umpteen pages ago.”--Ishkur
I do hope you realize that in order to remain consistent with your definition of what is “EDM” and what is not, you must recant one of your two claims because they are mutually exclusive. You want it both ways.
So you now believe that music that DOES NOT rely on electronic production can still be EDM?
| quote: | | For every The Roots, there are ten Jermaine Dupris. You cannot dispute this. What you should've done to knock out some rock solid, unignorable proof is, instead of picking out individuals and making sweeping generalizations for the whole based on a few rather mild characteristics they possess, you need to cite whole TRENDS, PUSHES, and WHOLE MOVEMENTS that divorce the style of music from its origins and its intent. |
Again, as usual, you’re entirely missing the point. It is beyond dispute that many (if not most) rap artists happen to use electronically oriented musical accompaniment behind their rapping. That isn’t the point. As emperorhui so clearly pointed out, once you have an exception everything starts falling apart.
Trance, House and Techno can use non-electronic instruments IN ADDITION to their regular production, but they still rely on electronic music. RAP DOES NOT RELY ON ELECTRONIC MUSIC. YOU CAN JUST AS EASILY REPLACE THE BACKGROUND ACCOMPANIMENT WITH NON-ELECTRONIC MUSIC AND STILL HAVE RAP. I’m not making “sweeping generalization”, I’m pointing out exceptions. The concept of having rap replaced by non-electronic instruments ALONE should cause you to stop right in your tracks and give up this hopeless endeavor of yours to wishfully include rap in a category it doesn’t belong. But then more incredible yet is that AFTER I PROVIDE YOU WITH RAP ARTISTS THAT DO JUST THIS, you still have the temerity to pretend that nothing has been proven yet. It’s transparently obvious to everyone here that you’re getting more desperate by the minute.
| quote: | | You still haven't said anything about breaks and jungle--cousins of hip hop. Are they EDM too? Or should I just consult you for now on every time I make an update to the guide? |
Give me a logical reason why they shouldn’t be EDM. Or better yet, provide me with some musical examples.
| quote: | If it's sheer baloney, then you should easily have mountains of evidence and justification for your reasoning.
We're still waiting. |
I’ll let the irony stand for itself.
| quote: | | And hip hop doesn't? ....Do you have any idea how hip hop is made, or are you just guessing? |
“And hip hop doesn’t?” what? Please elaborate on your point.
| quote: | | Pull the plug, and you got vocals/rapping. That's not EDM, that's acapella. It's not anything. Whether it's a guy blathering away about his rims or some silly tart whining about castles in the sky....it doesn't mean anything. |
You forgot about the part where they bring in the instrumental accompaniment and drums to replace the lack of electricity. You’re the only one whining about acapella.
System-J,
| quote: | | Hip-hop can be instrumental. |
Rap can be instrumental, precisely. This is what I have been trying to tell you all along.
BTW, please refrain from your unnecessarily humungous font sizing experiments. They are not only getting annoying, but they ultimately serve to make the demise of your arguments all the more blatant
| quote: | | In addition: rap is merely a type of vocal. Look up "rock music" in an English dictionary if you want, but that definition would make almost all music rock music. Rapping is a form of vocal that has appeared on a huge variety of musical genres over the past twenty years. Are the Red Hot Chili Peppers or Rage Against the Machine rap? No, but they used rapping in their tracks. Similarly, Snap!, 2 Unlimited, The KLF, Faithless, The Prodigy, The Chemical Brothers and Leftfield have all used rapping in their music. Does this make them rap? No. And don't argue that they only used rapping as an exception to the general rule, as RATM have never released a track that didn't have rapping in it. |
We don’t need you to tell us that occasional rapping (vocally by itself) has found its way into some Eurodance songs. This has been stated and understood numerous times. However, I just got done explaining to our good friend Ishkur here (or one of the guys), that we’re not discussing “rapping” as a vocal entity here, we’re talking about the music called “RAP” with the background accompaniment and all. Hip-Hop doesn’t exist apart from rap, IT ONLY INCLUDES RAP IN ITS CULTURE. Your post seriously lacks a contemporary attitude toward this debate.
The one described in the dictionary:
“RAP: n : genre of African-American music of the 1980s and 1990s in which rhyming lyrics are chanted to a musical accompaniment; several forms of rap have emerged [syn: rap, hip-hop]”
….That a bunch of other musical authorities confirm.
| quote: | If you took away all the electronic instruments from a hip-hop track you'd have rapping. This could make it a nu-metal track, a house track, a jungle track or even a "pop" track. Hip-hop is not defined by its use of rapping. Hip-hop in its original form was just a looped break. MCs rapping over that gave birth to rap. Hip-hop is essentially a looped break, and since it was made that break has always been performed on electronic instruments. So rapping on its own does not constitute a genre.
Here's a nice little test. Take Firestarter by The Prodigy. Remove all the electronic instruments from it. You still have a guitar and a vocal. By your logic, Firestarter is punk rock, not EDM.
Hip-hop is the musical genre, and the English dictionary isn't going to win any arguments. Is trance in there as a style of music? Nope, according to the English dictionary, trance doesn't exist.
Have you really any reply to this other than quoting a misinformed website that will try to tell me rap is the genre, while ignoring all the examples of rapped vocals in other styles of music?
Hip-hop is the musical genre, and the English dictionary isn't going to win any arguments. Is trance in there as a style of music? Nope, according to the English dictionary, trance doesn't exist. |
My dictionaries do. I’ve looked at it several times.
I'm really Sorry, but None of us have an appetite for hearing any more of your imaginary definitions for Hip-Hop.
For the record:
Hip-Hop – “A popular urban youth culture, closely associated with rap music and with the style and fashions of African-American inner-city residents.”
Rap music.”—Dictionary
But we don’t even need the dictionary to confirm what we know about “rap” and “hip-hop”. I kindly provided you with MUSICAL authorities earlier in this debate that CLEARLY define both as affirmed by the dictionary.
…And all the kings horses and all the kings men couldn’t put humpty dumpty back together again. |
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| JakeC |
'i said a hip hop the hippie the hippie
to the hip hip hop, a you dont stop'
when the term hip hop was first used a record back in 1979, hip hop is a genre of music.
who are these authorities? look in any of the dance music press and you will see reviews of records, Trance, House, Garage and Hip Hop where is the rap? Rapping is the way you rap your flow i.e. Gangsta Rap they rap about gangstas or themselves being gangstas.
Yes music can still be EDM without the electricity.
when you see someone like Faithless, The Streets, Groove Armada, Basement Jaxx live they usea live band but on there albums they are all studio produced and sequenced. Does this make them non edm?
Basically what you still havent proven is 'Rap' or 'Hip Hop' is not EDM, you keep coming up with all these metaphors in a vain attempt to confuse us in beleiving that hip hop is not a rightful EDM pigeon hole. |
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| Hydarnes |
I quoted this earlier. Here is an example of what almost all internet sources have to say about the matter:
Here are some definitions from internet authorities:
"What is the difference between hip hop and rap?
"Many people confuse both concepts. “Rap” refers to the music. Hip Hop refers to the culture.
I have found 3 interesting definitions of the word “rap” in the Urban Dictionnary:
1)“A form of popular music developed especially in African-American urban communities and characterized by spoken or chanted rhyming lyrics with a syncopated, repetitive rhythmic accompaniment.
A composition or performance of such music. “
I like this music, it is "rappin`" !
2)musical application of poetry, usually associated with the hardships of life and emotional grievances. Started up as early as the Beats (i.e. Kerouac and Cassidy) began using more experimental forms of poetry, and since has transgressed into modern pop and underground culture.
"If I could show you, you would never leave it." --Atmosphere, the most beautiful combination of music and poetry
3)The best type of music, where harsh lyrics are combined with tight beats to create the best form of music.
Some Famous Rappers Are Tupac, Bone Thugs-n-harmony, Outlawz, and Eminem that filthy white
Although the first corresponds more to an exact definition of rap music, I must admit that I like the second one very much. Why? Because I do think that some rap lyrics ( not only Eminem’s, but many rapper’s lyrics) are music applied to poetry. The third definition is more subjective, but I could hardly disagree with.
Rap music comes from hip hop culture. It is one of the traditional four elements of hip hop: breakdance, graffiti, turntablism and rapping.
A good definition of the word hip hop can also be found in the urban dictionnary:"
This can be found at: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/1839
Here is another internet authority source:
"What's the difference between hip-hop and rap?
Answers:
Hip-Hop is more than music, it's the culture of the revolution that began in New York City.
Often, some people say Hip-hop was the language of the Underground Railroad, which may be true. Others say hip-hop started with the Black Panther Party Movement of the late 60's and 70's.
Hip-hop is music, art, poetry, dancing, and life.
Rap music itself is just music, no culture behind it."
"Hip hop", at its core, is not a style of music. The term "hip hop" actually refers to the cultural movement that began in the 70s and 80s in the section of New York City known as The Bronx.
Hip hop culture found its expression in three major components; rap music, breakdancing, and graffiti art.
KRS-One is the mind behind Boogie Down Productions, one of the most influential rap groups to emerge from the hip-hop movement. He has an excellent spoken-word CD that explores hip-hop culture, and it is available at http://www.houseofnubian.com/IBS/Si...-id/682385.html"
This can be found at:
http://www.gavinsblog.com/mt/archives/000958.html
The source goes on to state further that Hip-Hop is actually a culture, NOT really music.
How many times does this have to be provided before you start coming to the remote realization that you're fighting for something that died long ago?
The only reason why your source has a "hip-hop" section is because the term can be interchangeable with "Rap". The dictionary even tells you: "Rap Music". But of course, we all should know by now, even if it isn't expressed, that Hip-Hop includes a culture, not just Rap. |
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