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Edm Genres? (pg. 9)
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Obviously you haven't been reading anything that's been said here or you would have noticed that I'm not the only one that thinks rap and hip-hop don't technically belong in the EDM category.
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Yeah, but all the people who agree with you are crackers.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Not only did you so effortlessly elide the fact that by all of these phony generalized definitions you and others are making that virtually ALL music ever created with ANY synthesizers would have to be redefined as EDM
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Yeah, that's what we've been saying. It's pretty straight-forward. electronic music is music made with electronic instruments. What a concept, eh? If you can think of a more apt definition for how electronic music gets made, I'm all ears.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
You failed to address the argument with respect to New Age Music
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New Age is electronic music, always has been, and no one has ever said it's not. Listen to Jean Michel Jarre, Vangelis, Ray Lynch. Some New Age composers employ orchestras and sections of real instruments in their live shows, but generally the studio productions are electronically composed.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
I provided you with independent sources which establish my position concerning what EDM constitutes.
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Like what? Your cracker friends or northern european-based websites?
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
You have failed to acknowledge that your definitions of what constitutes EDM would have to entail FAR MORE musical styles than what you accept, clearly intimating hypocrisy.
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No it doesn't. It's cut and dry: If it's reliant upon electronic instruments, then it's electronic music. The end. Some rock bands may utilize synthesizers, but they aren't reliant on them (nor do they have any electronic instruments connected with any kind of tracker or MIDI setup), and when you remove the synth they can still play their song. You can't do that with electronic music. When you remove the electronic instruments, you hear NOTHING...because that's all there is. If there is a power outage, a regular group can still go on playing, however crappy they sound. Electronic music can not. It is entirely dependent on electricity firing through transistors.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Someone here even went so far as to insinuate that rap and hip-hop qualify as EDM BECAUSE THEY HAVE PERCUSSION! How absurd is that?
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Dunno who that was, but it wasn't me. I asked if you knew exactly what percussion was because you used it in an incorrent manner, and you dodged the question, so that leads me to believe you don't. So let me explain it for you here now:
A percussive instrument is that which you can hit to make music. Strike. Smack. That's it. All Drum sounds, from the hi-hats to the snares to the tom-toms to the rimshots to the bass-kick, are percussion. Glockenspiels are percussion. Xylophones are percussion. Cowbells are percussion. Anything that requires you to hit it with a rod or your hand to produce a sound is called a percussive instrument. That includes pianos (you press a key, and it causes a bell inside the box to strike a string). Hell, just clapping your hands is a form of percussion.
It has nothing to do with melody, feel, sound, or what trancecrackers think it means.
Guitars, violins, cellos or any string-based instruments are not percussion, because you don't hit them. You pluck the strings or drag a bow across them. (I suppose you might be able to make a hazy argument about the slap-bass, but that's more of a technique than the general purpose of a bass guitar, and so doesn't qualify as a percussive instrument unless you play it in that distinct manner).
Flutes, clarinets, trumpets or any horn-based instruments are not percussion, because you don't hit them. You blow into them. They are called wind instruments in any standard orchestra, because that is what is required to get them to make noise. Understand?
Now..in electronic music's case, percussion actually means very little, because you don't "play" or "strike" any of the instruments. You PROGRAM them. With that said, because of sample playback polysynths, the purpose of many electronic synths is to simulate percussive or non-percussive instruments in a percussive way. That would make.....just about every keyboard, the backbone of electronic music's arsenal. But they aren't percussive instruments, though they pretend to be.
Trance has tons of percussion in it. In fact, in many cases, that's all it has. |
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| fuct4less |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Not only is "Just Be" a bonafide vocal trance song, but all authorities classify it as "euphoric trance". We find the same classification with Delerium's "Silence" feat. Sarah McLachlan, although I can't figure out what's so euphoric about the song. |
I'm really curious as to what authorities you consult for such typology, and the criteria they use in order to make those classifications. We can debate this for ages, but most of what's being churned out nowadays as "trance" shares far more similarities - both in terms of musical form and conceptually - with Euro-dance and other forms of house, than the genre that spawned from techno, acid house, new beat, and EBM in the early nineties, admittedly. Basically, it's like calling Slipknot metal or Simple Plan punk. Though there certainly are similarities shared, they are not the same genre. Simply put, epic Euro-dance is a far more befitting description of such songs than trance is.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
As for rap and hip-hop, again, just because they are have elements of electronic music does not automatically make them qualify (according to musical authorities) as "EDM". Show me ONE source that classifies euro-dance,trance, house with "rap" and "hip-hop" as being in the same musical category. I just provided you with a source that defines EDM as music that is largely produced by electronic sounds, and although you might think that rap and hip-hop can make some claims on that doesn't make them ACCEPTED EDM styles. This occurs in the VERY SAME WAY that new age isn't included as EDM simply because some of it heavily employs synthesizers. Can't you understand this? Rap and hip-hop might be played in dance clubs, but they give off an entirely different vibe than EDM or eurodance music, that's why they OVERWHELMINGLY are NOT classified with the other "dance" music. The constant rapping alters the whole nature of the music, even if some background synths are somewhat discernibly present.
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One source? What about quoting that encyclopedia you posted earlier? At the top of the page it says "Any sound produced by the means of an electronic signal may reasonably be called electronic," and goes on to further note that "As a category of criticism and marketing [...] electronic music refers to music largely produced by electronic components," in which case hip-hop, though not necessarily reliant upon electronic instruments in some cases, is technically a form of electronic music. Furthermore, I ask that you bear in mind that your whole "Becuz they don't mention it means it isn't a part of it" argument may be moot, as the site provides no links to an on-site page pertaining to hip-hop whatsoever.
Of course, I'm also curious to know as to why, exactly, you argue hip-hop isn't an excepted form of EDM when the controversy stirred by your statement seems to thusfar indicate otherwise. If you mean it isn't accepted by the masses as a form of EDM, then yes, I can agree with you, as hip-hop (I suspect due to it's popularity) isn't marketed with house and the various other forms of electronic music. But if you're adopting the typology of the masses for this argument, I wonder why you didn't make the claim that all the rest is just "techno " in the first place.
As it stands, hip-hop is a form of electronic music, as the definition of electronic music is applicable to the genre, despite it being omitted somewhere. |
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| Hydarnes |
Ishkur,
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Yeah, but all the people who agree with you are crackers. |
Ipse Dixit
| quote: | | Yeah, that's what we've been saying. It's pretty straight-forward. electronic music is music made with electronic instruments. What a concept, eh? If you can think of a more apt definition for how electronic music gets made, I'm all ears. |
I'm really not interested in perpetuating this ultra-fruitless debate about what styles of music may qualify LOOSELY as "EM". Apparently you're escaping the entire issue raised by my initial argument.
Since we have established that New Age, Rap and Hip-Hop music largely employ synthesizers, it is inevitable that they can be regarded IN A SENSE as "EM", however, to include them in the same generally understood category "EDM" is to falsely associate them with completely different styles of music. Eurodance, Trance, House and Techno all share VERY similar characteristics, but New Age, Rap and Hip-Hop add or exclude key production elements that disqualify them from being officially declared "EDM".
To give you a little understanding of what I mean. My first introduction to the whole EDM scene was Eurodance, and it became my fav style of music, but eventually I discovered Trance and noticed a very close similarity between the two, which is why I also liked the latter. The same thing happened with House and some Techno, BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY RELATED IN SOUND. Furthermore, I've always considered Rap and Hip-Hop some of the worst styles of music to exist, and there simply doesn't exist enough similarity for me to like the latter. All of the other styles of EDM are related, Rap and Hip-Hop stand on their own with separate fans. Can't you understand that? I have so many friends that love rap and hip-hop but they hate eurodance, trance, house, techno. There isn't enough there to the official connection that you're proposing. The websites I have submitted here reflect my conclusion. Just because these styles might loosely qualify as EDM neither New Age nor Rap or Hip-Hop are included BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ENOUGH SIMILARITY IN THE MUSICAL STYLE.
| quote: | | New Age is electronic music, always has been, and no one has ever said it's not. Listen to Jean Michel Jarre, Vangelis, Ray Lynch. Some New Age composers employ orchestras and sections of real instruments in their live shows, but generally the studio productions are electronically composed. |
Again, you keep repeating this but you fail to recognize my point. I agree that it can loosely fit in the umbrella of "EM", but I just gave you examples that DO NOT INCLUDE New Age along with dance, trance, house and techno because it isn't similar enough---EVEN THOUGH IT EMPLOYS SYNTHESIZERS to make it qualify as "EM".
| quote: | | Like what? Your cracker friends or northern european-based websites? |
Obviously you're not even following this thread.
| quote: | | No it doesn't. It's cut and dry: If it's reliant upon electronic instruments, then it's electronic music. The end. Some rock bands may utilize synthesizers, but they aren't reliant on them (nor do they have any electronic instruments connected with any kind of tracker or MIDI setup), and when you remove the synth they can still play their song. You can't do that with electronic music. When you remove the electronic instruments, you hear NOTHING...because that's all there is. If there is a power outage, a regular group can still go on playing, however crappy they sound. Electronic music can not. It is entirely dependent on electricity firing through transistors. |
And your point?
| quote: | | Dunno who that was, but it wasn't me. I asked if you knew exactly what percussion was because you used it in an incorrent manner, and you dodged the question, so that leads me to believe you don't. So let me explain it for you here now: |
First of all your question was non sequitur, so if I answered in an incoherent manner according to that, then I'm guilty as charged.
| quote: | A percussive instrument is that which you can hit to make music. Strike. Smack. That's it. All Drum sounds, from the hi-hats to the snares to the tom-toms to the rimshots to the bass-kick, are percussion. Glockenspiels are percussion. Xylophones are percussion. Cowbells are percussion. Anything that requires you to hit it with a rod or your hand to produce a sound is called a percussive instrument. That includes pianos (you press a key, and it causes a bell inside the box to strike a string). Hell, just clapping your hands is a form of percussion.
It has nothing to do with melody, feel, sound, or what trancecrackers think it means. |
I'm quite familiar with what percussion is. Your point?
| quote: | Guitars, violins, cellos or any string-based instruments are not percussion, because you don't hit them. You pluck the strings or drag a bow across them. (I suppose you might be able to make a hazy argument about the slap-bass, but that's more of a technique than the general purpose of a bass guitar, and so doesn't qualify as a percussive instrument unless you play it in that distinct manner).
Flutes, clarinets, trumpets or any horn-based instruments are not percussion, because you don't hit them. You blow into them. They are called wind instruments in any standard orchestra, because that is what is required to get them to make noise. Understand? |
Lovely information for those unacquainted. Your point with respect to EDM?
| quote: | Now..in electronic music's case, percussion actually means very little, because you don't "play" or "strike" any of the instruments. You PROGRAM them. With that said, because of sample playback polysynths, the purpose of many electronic synths is to simulate percussive or non-percussive instruments in a percussive way. That would make.....just about every keyboard, the backbone of electronic music's arsenal. But they aren't percussive instruments, though they pretend to be.
Trance has tons of percussion in it. In fact, in many cases, that's all it has. |
I agree, there is quite a bit of percussion in Trance, but in many cases it limits the amount (some chillout). So where exactly are you going with all this, I'm really on the edge of my seat.
f4life,
| quote: | | I'm really curious as to what authorities you consult for such typology, and the criteria they use in order to make those classifications. We can debate this for ages, but most of what's being churned out nowadays as "trance" shares far more similarities - both in terms of musical form and conceptually - with Euro-dance and other forms of house, than the genre that spawned from techno, acid house, new beat, and EBM in the early nineties, admittedly. Basically, it's like calling Slipknot metal or Simple Plan punk. Though there certainly are similarities shared, they are not the same genre. Simply put, epic Euro-dance is a far more befitting description of such songs than trance is. |
Seeing that you're already understanding the endless debate potential, I don't think it's really necessary to delve into it. I would if I knew some fruit would come out of it.
I completely agree with your rationale about "eurodance" and the fact that it serves as a more apt general term to include all of the other styles related to it.
Incidentally, this similarity argument is the same basis for why I believe rap, hip-hop and new age music should be officially excluded from the other categories because they are not close enough in "likeable" nature as the other styles of music. Someone who likes eurodance is very likely to find trance appealing, and the same with house and techno. This ISN'T the case with rap, hip-hop and new age, period! So although they all, in the most technical definition of the term, fall under this umbrella, THEY SHOULD not be considered in the same category, and "EDM" is generally understood as eurodance, trance, house, techno etc, not new age, rap or hip hop.
| quote: | | One source? What about quoting that encyclopedia you posted earlier? At the top of the page it says "Any sound produced by the means of an electronic signal may reasonably be called electronic," and goes on to further note that "As a category of criticism and marketing [...] electronic music refers to music largely produced by electronic components," in which case hip-hop, though not necessarily reliant upon electronic instruments in some cases, is technically a form of electronic music. Furthermore, I ask that you bear in mind that your whole "Becuz they don't mention it means it isn't a part of it" argument may be moot, as the site provides no links to an on-site page pertaining to hip-hop whatsoever. |
You know, I am so glad you noticed all of those definitions, because I was going to quote them in making a point but decided not to. Fortunately, you've done it for me so now it'll be more worth the effort.
Notwithstanding the definition that MY VERY OWN SOURCE provided (which, in the very technical sense of the word would include new age, rap and hip hop)--IT EXCLUDED ALL THREE FROM THE LIST. Why? Simple! Because they don't fit in a bona fide way like the rest do!
| quote: | | Of course, I'm also curious to know as to why, exactly, you argue hip-hop isn't an excepted form of EDM when the controversy stirred by your statement seems to thusfar indicate otherwise |
I'm sorry but taking this forum and observing the fact that most in this thread seem to be supporting the inclusion is nowhere near tantamount to making it logically "correct".
| quote: | | If you mean it isn't accepted by the masses as a form of EDM, then yes, I can agree with you, as hip-hop (I suspect due to it's popularity) isn't marketed with house and the various other forms of electronic music. But if you're adopting the typology of the masses for this argument, I wonder why you didn't make the claim that all the rest is just "techno " in the first place. |
But you missed the fact that the REASON WHY the masses don't consider them all in the same bundle IS BECAUSE THEY AREN'T READILY SIMILAR ENOUGH, EVEN THOUGH THEY EMPLOY SYNTHESIZERS (just like New Age does)--this renders ample reason to exclude them (as our musical sources have done) for the purpose of not perpetuating unnecessary musical confusion. You know, if we can just get through a couple hurdles I'm confident we can see eye to eye on this. ;) |
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| twisted |
i gotta hand it to you man, you wont give up and you stand by your point.
respect
;) :stongue: |
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| Sykonee |
| When I went to buy B.G. The Prince Of Rap album at my local music shop, I found it in the hip-hop section. Hydarnes would not approve.:crazy: |
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| Hydarnes |
| quote: | Originally posted by twisted
i gotta hand it to you man, you wont give up and you stand by your point.
respect
;) :stongue: |
lol. It's something in my blood, I used to debate creation and evolution endlessly. ;) |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Eurodance, Trance, House and Techno all share VERY similar characteristics, but New Age, Rap and Hip-Hop add or exclude key production elements that disqualify them from being officially declared "EDM".
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Hip hop bears significant similarities to electro, which is officially regarded as EDM by everyone ever, big-beat (also undoubtedly EDM), drum 'n bass (officially EDM) and also old-skool rave and acid house tracks (such as D Mob), all officially regarded as EDM. Just because hip-hop doesn't sound like the narrow field of electronic dance music you listen to doesn't mean it doesn't qualify as EDM. |
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| Liquid Fusion |
| your right about the rap being considered EDM...i bought the book HOW TO DJ RIGHT! probably one of the best books for djing...and people such as Grandmaster Flash and Afrika Bombaata or however you spin in talk about what influenced them and where they got some of there beats...also, there are three documentaries on one of the threads which i am two lazy to send a link to that tell you the origins of house and electronic music and the people them self tell you...in fact almost all dj's and producers of the sort consider anything done at home to be considered house music...maybe you guys should check it out...there long and i havent watch all of them yet...but from what i saw they are very good and the guy put alot of effort into them...just listen to the ledgends..the ones who started this whole music! |
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| DjArTiN! |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sykonee
"What do you listen to?"
"Trance."
"Oh, like Oakenfold?"
"Good God, no! Like Koxbox."
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Lol, that's hilarious. I get what you mean, +1. |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
I'm really not interested in perpetuating this ultra-fruitless debate about what styles of music may qualify LOOSELY as "EM".
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Yes you are. And what's loosely about it? It's cut and dry. ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENT == ELECTRONIC MUSIC. How hard is that to understand? How much simpler must we make it for you? Do you have trouble buttoning yourself in the morning or breathing with your mouth closed?
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Since we have established that New Age, Rap and Hip-Hop music largely employ synthesizers, it is inevitable that they can be regarded IN A SENSE as "EM", however, to include them in the same generally understood category "EDM"
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I haven't said anything about electronic DANCE music. I've only specifically talked about electronic music. It's not "in a sense", Logical Fallacy Man. They are. Period. You cannot dispute this.
(and besides, I dance to hip hop. Don't you?)
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
is to falsely associate them with completely different styles of music. Eurodance, Trance, House and Techno
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I don't do this. I don't know anyone who does this. Who does this? You do this? Because you hang out on this site, you think everyone in the world does this? ....check your premises. The world is not defined by what you like and don't like. It is defined by what it is, regardless of your cultural insecurities.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
all share VERY similar characteristics, but New Age, Rap and Hip-Hop add or exclude key production elements that disqualify them from being officially declared "EDM".
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Like what? Can you name any?
Hip hop sounds closer to electro, jungle, trip hop, and breaks than it does trance. Are you going to expel them too? 15 years ago, it was closer to techno and house, and trance barely existed. It's been around for 30 years. It's not going to be divorced from the electronic music family just because trance showed up.
Hip hop invented DJing. Without Kool Herc, you wouldn't be listening to trance today.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
To give you a little understanding of what I mean.
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Your biases are clearly evident and completely moot, you don't need to clarify them. They are neither useful nor admissable as evidence in this argument.
(pssst...eurodance came from hip hop. It bubbled out of the recesses of the gay house scene (italo divas) of the late 80s, merging with rap and chicago house. It is yet another one of those 'black music co-opted by whites' things)
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Rap and Hip-Hop stand on their own with separate fans.
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At the moment, the only scene I see standing on its own with its separate fans is trance. I can go into any well-rounded electronic music nightclub or party, and they play all sorts of . It's great stuff. But you go to a trance party....and it's nothing but eurotrance, all night long. And nothing but. It's among the most anal-retentive, obstinately stubborn and closed-minded scenes that exist right now. All eurotrance or nothing. There are clubs I know now that refuse to play trance, because it attracts the annoying trancecrackers who try to ask for requests and get pissed off when any other music other than trance is played. Too much headache. They just can't be bothered with this uptight scene anymore. Go home, trancetards. Electronic music doesn't want you here.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Again, you keep repeating this but you fail to recognize my point.
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Your point is that you want to divide things along cultural and emotional lines rather than logically and rationally, but your problem is you've had your own nose stuck up your ass for so long you fail to notice the changing winds could easily blow any which way, marking a severe shift in attitudes and perceptions. Social inertia is funny like that. So to prevent that from happening, argue WHAT THINGS ARE, not what you want them to be.....using an objective, rational, consistent basis. Wishing something is something else doesn't make it so.
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
I'm quite familiar with what percussion is. Your point?
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One of your more stupid arguments was dismissing rap because it had nothing but percussion, failing to understand that not only does trance have the same thing, but, being electronic, it doesn't really mean a whole lot to either genre.
Now you know, and knowing is half the battle. Would you like me to smack you in the back of the head next time?
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
I believe rap, hip-hop and new age music should be officially excluded from the other categories because they are not close enough in "likeable" nature as the other styles of music. Someone who likes eurodance is very likely to find trance appealing, and the same with house and techno. This ISN'T the case with rap, hip-hop and new age, period!
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My music guide has 180 genres on it. Under your direction, about 120 of them would be completely slashed away because they don't sound like the music you like. That includes practically the entire breakbeat, jungle and downtempo sections, and serious chunks of techno, house, Industrial and IDM.
That makes your argument, as flimsy as it already is, not only wrong, but completely ing retarded. |
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| paranoik0 |
| apart from this discussion, i'm gonna repeat myself cause i'm curious: why is downtempo considered as EDM if people don't dance to it (as far as i know atleast!)? or is it just EM? |
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| Ishkur |
It's just EM. No one's called it EDM.
Although....discerning the difference between things by whether you can dance to them or not is a pretty stupid distinction, IMO. |
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