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Edm Genres? (pg. 44)
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| Redd |
I've read all of this and I'm not convinced either way. It might be it's just a question of definition.
Still, I'd like to see the continuation of this discussion. Kudos to everyone patient enough to still be involved ;) |
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| Hydarnes |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
I haven't changed my mind at all. I said this on page one. I'm saying this now.
Sequenced music is sent through a digital mixing board and quantized to a preset time signature. All electronic music does that.
Live music doesn't do that.
End of argument. |
So what are you saying? That only electronically produced music uses a sequencer? |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
You argue that sampling doesn't count. I would like to point out that the balance of all the house/trance/techno you so love is actually based on a sample of some sort. |
Your reading comprehention needs improvement. I said that rap/hip-hop samples organically produced music whereas EDM is electronically produced. I did not rule out samples as part of EDM.... hell, it's nearly all sample, but sampled from a different source. |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
So what are you saying? That only electronically produced music uses a sequencer? |
What do you think MIDI is? |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
I said that rap/hip-hop samples organically produced music whereas EDM is electronically produced. I did not rule out samples as part of EDM.... hell, it's nearly all sample, but sampled from a different source. |
Sooooo....digital samples don't count (I'm including, among this, sample playback polysynths). But organic ones do. Even organic ones fed through ADSR envelopes and noise gates and digital waveforms and flanges to give them an entirely un-organic output?
Do you have any idea how dodgy this reasoning is? It's like the analog vs. digital debate all over again. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Sooooo....digital samples don't count (I'm including, among this, sample playback polysynths). But organic ones do. Even organic ones fed through ADSR envelopes and noise gates and digital waveforms and flanges to give them an entirely un-organic output?
Do you have any idea how dodgy this reasoning is? It's like the analog vs. digital debate all over again. |
WHAT? Again, improve your comprehension. What I'm saying is that Rap/hip-hop tends to utilize samples of music that were created using organic instuments (mainly seventies funk music). Because the music being sampled is entirely organic then the end product does not qualify as electronic no matter how you move it from the turntable to the speaker.
Besides, no matter how you slice it you still cannot get past the reality that rap and EDM have different origins and therefore cannot be the same genre. |
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| JakeC |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
BTW, if you don't belive me, listen to any Rap/hip-hop music from prior to 1990... the term rap is everywhere but the word hip-hop does not exist.
In case you are wondering the term hip-hop is derived from the Naughty By Nature song Hip-hop Horray. |
Sugar Hill Gang - Rappers Delight released 1979
open line of rappers delight goes:
i said a hip hop the hippie the hippie
to the hip hip hop, a you dont stop'
Naughty By Nature - Hip Hop Hooray released 1993
From a wikipedia which can now be classed as an "Authority"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-DMC
read the opening line |
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| muckluck |
I said a own ed the ownie the ownie
To the own own own ed, a you got boned |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
WHAT? Again, improve your comprehension.
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Hmmm. I can only conclude that you are either really dense, or you don't know very much about music production.
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
What I'm saying is that Rap/hip-hop tends to utilize samples of music that were created using organic instuments (mainly seventies funk music).
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*shrug* So does house. So do breaks. So does jungle. Hell, so does some trance.
What I said, though....is it still organic after its fed through an effects processor? Is it still organic before or after its compressed? Is it organic before or after you apply a resonance filter? Is it organic before or after you speed it up, pitch-bend it and normalixe it to turn it inside out and upside down? Is it organic before or after you apply an ADSR envelope? is it organic before or after you clean it up to remove certain elements in it and keep the rest?
What producers do with organic samples is analogous to taking a picture, scanning it into photoshop and throwing filters, plug-ins and layer effects at it until it becomes barely recognizable from the original photo. Is it still the same photo?
Or if it's just untouched samples you're talking about...what about the IDM artists who sample whole albums--UNTOUCHED--but only speed them up until they're a second long, and then use those single-second samples in their tracks. Does that count?
See, there's just way too much manipulation in the digital age for you to be talking about "organic samples". There's really nothing of the sort anymore.
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Because the music being sampled is entirely organic then the end product does not qualify as electronic no matter how you move it from the turntable to the speaker.
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I'm not talking about the turntable to the speaker. I'm talking about from the sampler to the mixing board. You know...where the music is actually MADE.
(don't think Dre didn't do this with Funky Drummer when he made Straight Outta Compton. Listen to the effects he applied to turn what was once a funky little diddy into a hard-pounding, hardcore slamming sequence of beats)
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Besides, no matter how you slice it you still cannot get past the reality that rap and EDM have different origins and therefore cannot be the same genre. |
This...is true. EDM as an official monicker for anything did not actually come around until about....5 years ago. I honestly had never heard anyone use it before then, though maybe it was or wasn't. It doesn't matter
It seemed to mostly bubble up through the scene itself because 1) We hated the mainstream calling it techno and 2) We hated the mainstream calling it electronica even more.
Right from the outset, the proper usage of EDM was as a catch-all umbrella term for every qualifiable genre of music that was played at raves and danceclubs around the world. From what I can gather, by today it seems trance crackers want to claim it all for themselves and expel anyone who doesn't take part in the whitebread, cheesy northern european superclub massive dance scene. Well...if you want to do that, go right ahead, but quite honestly, calling your music EDM--as if it's the only possible music of that kind that could possibly exist--is damn near insulting to the 40 bazillion other scenes in the world who also celebrate and dance to music that is electronic.
So technically, you're right, but only in the sense that hip hop has an actual origin and "EDM" does not. If you want to separate yourself from the evil dark people, call your ing music trance. And we can all get on with living our lives. Quit insisting that your music is the only electronic music that matters. |
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| JakeC |
| quote: | Originally posted by muckluck
I said a own ed the ownie the ownie
To the own own own ed, a you got boned |
:haha:
well your better than 50 cent :D |
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| Sykonee |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Although the question is directed at Hydarnes I must chip in my two cents as well.
Most of the music used in the backing of hip-hop and rap songs are sampled from earlier songs. Those songs were first composed and recorded using organic instruments. What this creates is a situation were organically made music electronically reproduced and mixed into one song (usually with some synthetic base line). This is not the same as EDM or EM which is nearly exclusively composed with and made by electronic devices. |
*hesitantly brings another canister of gasoline*
Er... what of Timbaland, then? And Lil' Jon? Their music is 100% electronically produced. |
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| Hydarnes |
| quote: | | Hmmm. I can only conclude that you are either really dense, or you don't know very much about music production. |
With every attempt at making an argument you end up basking in your own irony.
| quote: | | *shrug* So does house. So do breaks. So does jungle. Hell, so does some trance. |
Obviously you're the only one having cognitive difficulties here, because his reference to Rap using samples was merely supplementary information on top of the fact that Rap doesn't need electronic music to subsist--that it often uses non-electronic production--ergo, it isn't EDM. You're the only one that's dense here, and your unremitting persistance in trying to be right in *SOMETHING* is making you look increasingly idiotic.
| quote: | | What I said, though....is it still organic after its fed through an effects processor? Is it still organic before or after its compressed? Is it organic before or after you apply a resonance filter? Is it organic before or after you speed it up, pitch-bend it and normalixe it to turn it inside out and upside down? Is it organic before or after you apply an ADSR envelope? is it organic before or after you clean it up to remove certain elements in it and keep the rest? |
ROFL...ANY MUSIC NOWADAYS CAN MANIPULATE ORGANIC SOUND WITH COMPUTERS, THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MAKING IT EDM OR NOT. Don't you realize how foolish you're sounding?
| quote: | | See, there's just way too much manipulation in the digital age for you to be talking about "organic samples". There's really nothing of the sort anymore. |
So if I edit and adjust music and/or vocals in a rock song using the computer it becomes MIRACULOUSLY becomes EM or EDM?
| quote: | I'm not talking about the turntable to the speaker. I'm talking about from the sampler to the mixing board. You know...where the music is actually MADE.
(don't think Dre didn't do this with Funky Drummer when he made Straight Outta Compton. Listen to the effects he applied to turn what was once a funky little diddy into a hard-pounding, hardcore slamming sequence of beats) |
Don't you realize that by your logic we have to completely redefine what "EM" and "EDM" are? I could say that because any organic song is digitally edited it's "EM" or "EDM". This is absolutely inane and you sure as well know it.
| quote: | | Right from the outset, the proper usage of EDM was as a catch-all umbrella term for every qualifiable genre of music that was played at raves and danceclubs around the world. |
NO, that was your usage, the rest you imagined.
| quote: | | From what I can gather, by today it seems trance crackers want to claim it all for themselves and expel anyone who doesn't take part in the whitebread, cheesy northern european superclub massive dance scene. Well...if you want to do that, go right ahead, but quite honestly, calling your music EDM--as if it's the only possible music of that kind that could possibly exist--is damn near insulting to the 40 bazillion other scenes in the world who also celebrate and dance to music that is electronic. |
It's either EDM, or it isn't. It's quite simple actually if you can manage to look past your prejudice. This has nothing to do with arbitrary exclusion, this has to do with what fits.
| quote: | | So technically, you're right, |
FINALLY! It took you long enough to come around. Next time just concede sooner rather than carrying on with your finagaling.
| quote: | | but only in the sense that hip hop has an actual origin and "EDM" does not. |
If it exists then it obviously had an origin.
| quote: | | If you want to separate yourself from the evil dark people, call your ing music trance. And we can all get on with living our lives. Quit insisting that your music is the only electronic music that matters. |
OH my, now we're bringing racism into this? What are you going to do next, accuse us of being nazis?
| quote: | | Quit insisting that your music is the only electronic music that matters. |
Who said that the electronic music we like is the only kind that matters? There are a bunch of EDM styles that I dislike. This doesn't have to do with "likes" or "dislikes", this has to do with hard facts. I realize that you would like to debate on an emotional level rather than sound deduction, but I'm afraid that sort of approach isn't going to hold out beyond an isolated, wishfully accepted opinion. |
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