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Edm Genres? (pg. 33)
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| Hydarnes |
Paranoik,
| quote: | Originally posted by paranoik0
Hip-Hop isn't a peculiar style of singing, Rap is a peculiar style of singing. Rap isn't EDM, it's a form of vocals. Hip-Hop is EDM, Rap is not. That's what i'm trying to say there, and what i tried to make you realise with that analogy which you clearly didn't understand at all: |
First of all, I hope you realize that you are the first one here proposing that Hip-Hop is EDM but "Rap" isn't. Both have been incessantly urged here as accepted "EDM" against logical scrutiny.
Apparently the main disagreement between us lies in our interpretation of "Hip-Hop". I have always considered Hip-Hop a slightly more melodically-sung form of "Rap". After doing some further research on the matter, my understanding of Hip-Hop, as well as yours are a bit erroneous. In fact, I think most people have slightly different definitions of Hip-Hop. Probably the most accurately stated definition in this thread was that it is a culture, not really a music at its core. Rap is the music.
Here are some definitions from internet authorities:
"What is the difference between hip hop and rap?
"Many people confuse both concepts. “Rap” refers to the music. Hip Hop refers to the culture.
I have found 3 interesting definitions of the word “rap” in the Urban Dictionnary:
1)“A form of popular music developed especially in African-American urban communities and characterized by spoken or chanted rhyming lyrics with a syncopated, repetitive rhythmic accompaniment.
A composition or performance of such music. “
I like this music, it is "rappin`" !
2)musical application of poetry, usually associated with the hardships of life and emotional grievances. Started up as early as the Beats (i.e. Kerouac and Cassidy) began using more experimental forms of poetry, and since has transgressed into modern pop and underground culture.
"If I could show you, you would never leave it." --Atmosphere, the most beautiful combination of music and poetry
3)The best type of music, where harsh lyrics are combined with tight beats to create the best form of music.
Some Famous Rappers Are Tupac, Bone Thugs-n-harmony, Outlawz, and Eminem that filthy white
Although the first corresponds more to an exact definition of rap music, I must admit that I like the second one very much. Why? Because I do think that some rap lyrics ( not only Eminem’s, but many rapper’s lyrics) are music applied to poetry. The third definition is more subjective, but I could hardly disagree with.
Rap music comes from hip hop culture. It is one of the traditional four elements of hip hop: breakdance, graffiti, turntablism and rapping.
A good definition of the word hip hop can also be found in the urban dictionnary:"
This can be found at: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/1839
Here is another internet authority source:
"What's the difference between hip-hop and rap?
Answers:
Hip-Hop is more than music, it's the culture of the revolution that began in New York City.
Often, some people say Hip-hop was the language of the Underground Railroad, which may be true. Others say hip-hop started with the Black Panther Party Movement of the late 60's and 70's.
Hip-hop is music, art, poetry, dancing, and life.
Rap music itself is just music, no culture behind it."
"Hip hop", at its core, is not a style of music. The term "hip hop" actually refers to the cultural movement that began in the 70s and 80s in the section of New York City known as The Bronx.
Hip hop culture found its expression in three major components; rap music, breakdancing, and graffiti art.
KRS-One is the mind behind Boogie Down Productions, one of the most influential rap groups to emerge from the hip-hop movement. He has an excellent spoken-word CD that explores hip-hop culture, and it is available at http://www.houseofnubian.com/IBS/Si...-id/682385.html"
This can be found at:
http://www.gavinsblog.com/mt/archives/000958.html
The source goes on to state that Hip-Hop is actually a culture, NOT really music.
CONCLUSION
Your argument that "Hip-Hop" is EDM but Rap isn't cannot make sense according to this definition. Rap is the music, Hip-Hop is the culture behind it, and therefore my position that Rap should be be considered an accepted form of "EDM" because it does not rely on electronic music or synthesizers stands.
Also notice that "Rap" is defined as "Rapidly rhymed words with background music accompaniment". None of the definitions that I have found includes "electronic music" as a defining feature of Rap music.
| quote: | | Of course i don't believe it. I was just using the same argument for eurodance that you used for hip-hop to try to make you realise what was wrong with your argument. |
Well I'm glad you don't believe it, because it was an extremely silly joke.
But guess what? We are both in agreement, because both of us realize that Rap is not "EDM".
Case Closed. |
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| UWM |
Just because the production of Rap music doesn't necessarily rely on electronic production doesn't mean that it uses it, subsequently classifying it as 'EDM.'
How is it so hard? |
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| paranoik0 |
ok, i'll let you win this then. as i've said before, i'm not the most educated in this matter.. i still feel my interpretation made a bit more sense tho
| quote: | | But guess what? We are both in agreement, because both of us realize that Rap is not "EDM". |
well, no. considering that rap is just the vocals, i say it's not EDM. if it includes the "background music" then i believe it is EDM. |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
I don't need to name one for the concept to be valid.
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Yes you do. This is what we call "burden of proof". Simply saying something doesn't make it so, you must back it up with empirical evidence and rigorous testing.
How many fallacies have you violated thus far?
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
You sure have a prolific imagination. I've never held such a position and I never will.
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Then why did you say it?
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
I think any unbiased person reading this will agree that my reasons are valid based on the generally accepted criterion for establishing what EDM is.
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Which is? |
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| Hydarnes |
| quote: | Originally posted by paranoik0
ok, i'll let you win this won. as i've said before, i'm not the most educated in this matter.. i still feel my interpretation made a bit more sense tho
well, no. considering that rap is just the vocals, i say it's not EDM. if it includes the "background music" then i believe it is EDM. |
Don't worry, it's not a matter of winning. I never won anything. It's just that people here need to be consistent in their definitions of "EDM". The fact is, that we BOTH had our understanding of "Hip-Hop" all wrong.
However, I do hope that you realize that if our definition for "EDM" is not "A style of music that relies on electronic sounds and synthesizers", then it is impossible to say that rock music which employs synthesizers ISN'T EDM "because using electronic sounds isn't a critical component", because otherwise you MUST conclude that IT IS EDM as well (which it is not) if you wish to remain logically consistent.
Also, according to the definition, rap is not just the vocals, it entails both the vocals and the music. But rap is, of course, the critical factor for defining the music, not the type of sounds used in the background. |
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| Hydarnes |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ishkur
Yes you do. This is what we call "burden of proof". Simply saying something doesn't make it so, you must back it up with empirical evidence and rigorous testing.
How many fallacies have you violated thus far? |
LOL, you won't give up will you? How much overwhelming evidence do you need before you recognize that you're fighting for a defeated cause. Of COURSE the burden of proof is on me, which is why I have been delivering as best as possible.
| quote: | | Then why did you say it? |
Show me where I said this. If I did, it was a grammatical mistake because I've never believed such a thing.
Definition #1 that I originally gave, and that everyone thus far has agreed upon. You still refuse to pick one. |
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| LeiWM06 |
Have you heard of acapellas of hip-hop and per haps vocal trance???
they sound amost the same... just ppl singing...
| quote: | Your argument that "Hip-Hop" is EDM but Rap isn't cannot make sense according to this definition. Rap is the music, Hip-Hop is the culture behind it, and therefore my position that Rap should be be considered an accepted form of "EDM" because it does not rely on electronic music or synthesizers stands.
Also notice that "Rap" is defined as "Rapidly rhymed words with background music accompaniment". None of the definitions that I have found includes "electronic music" as a defining feature of Rap music. |
Granted you can rap without background music, but it doesn't sound good. Rap is not music! It's a style of vocals that's inserted to hip-hop. Just like vocals isn't music, rap by it self isn't music. What is know as rap music is hip-hop with rap in it, just like trance with vocals...
No one said rap as a singing techinque should be EDM. Just like no one would say vocals in trance alone are great trance music...
| quote: | Answers:
Hip-Hop is more than music, it's the culture of the revolution that began in New York City.
Often, some people say Hip-hop was the language of the Underground Railroad, which may be true. Others say hip-hop started with the Black Panther Party Movement of the late 60's and 70's.
Hip-hop is music, art, poetry, dancing, and life.
Rap music itself is just music, no culture behind it."
"Hip hop", at its core, is not a style of music. The term "hip hop" actually refers to the cultural movement that began in the 70s and 80s in the section of New York City known as The Bronx.
Hip hop culture found its expression in three major components; rap music, breakdancing, and graffiti art.
KRS-One is the mind behind Boogie Down Productions, one of the most influential rap groups to emerge from the hip-hop movement. He has an excellent spoken-word CD that explores hip-hop culture, and it is available at http://www.houseofnubian.com/IBS/Si...-id/682385.html"
This can be found at:
http://www.gavinsblog.com/mt/archives/000958.html
The source goes on to state that Hip-Hop is actually a culture, NOT really music. |
You're arguments have to do with culture and subject of the music. And people claim that hip-hop is more than music and it's a way of life. Ok... it's still part music right? And the music part of it is definately EDM:
from your sources:
http://www.npr.org/programs/morning...c/breakdancing/
The DJ’s have made an instrument out of the turntable. The scratches helped the DJ’s to refine their sound.
DJ Babu defined turntablism in 1995 this way:
"My definition of a Turntablist is a person who uses the turntables not to play music, but to manipulate sound and create music."
There are two major elements in turntablism:
-scratching: it is the technique during which the turntablist moves the vinyl recors back and forth against the needle in order to produce various sounds.
-beat juggling: it is the technique that consists of using two different records and arranging the different elements in order to create a new rhythmical composition.
Although many people use rap and hip hop to refer to the music, it doesn’t refer to the same concept. KRS One gave us the right definition for us to make a real distinction between both words:
“Rap is something you do Hip Hop is something you live”
Wait a minute here... hip hop DJs almost sound just like any other EDM djs... they scrach and mix... hummm coincidence???
1) A music that's primarily produced by electronical means.
2) Music that's primarily produced to be played on the dance floor.
That's it, if you have those two, it's EDM...
So... trance fits... let's see house fits... wait rock doesn't fit, humm so doesn't classical... no country music doesn't fit.... Humm, hip hop? Well it definitely fits #1, and yeah... it fits #2 too. So it must be EDM...
If this definition places and I quote "A LOT OF OTHER MUSIC" into EDM, please name them so we can revise our definition? Please name these OTHER MUSIC that would fit #1 and #2 and are still not EDM...
Please don't say industrial.... |
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| paranoik0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
However, I do hope that you realize that if our definition for "EDM" is not "A style of music that relies on electronic sounds and synthesizers", then it is impossible to say that rock music which employs synthesizers ISN'T EDM "because using electronic sounds isn't a critical component", because otherwise you MUST conclude that IT IS EDM as well (which it is not) if you wish to remain logically consistent.
Also, according to the definition, rap is not just the vocals, it entails both the vocals and the music. But rap is, of course, the critical factor for defining the music, not the type of sounds used in the background. |
Thing is, rock isn't EDM because there is a solid musical base apart for electronic sounds and synthesizers. When they are used they are a bonus and not the "consistent" part of the sound that makes it rock. Rap is EDM because apart for the vocals, everything is electronic sounds and synthesizers. Maybe the vocals are the most important thing in a rap track, but it does rely on the electronics, as if you remove the electronic parts on it you get a lot less than if you remove the electronic parts on a rock track. |
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| starglider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
LOL, you won't give up will you? How much overwhelming evidence do you need before you recognize that you're fighting for a defeated cause. Of COURSE the burden of proof is on me, which is why I have been delivering as best as possible. |
You have delivered exactly zero proof.
Kindly provide the following:
Evidence of rap music that isn't electronically produced and sequenced.
Try to avoid pointless obfuscation. |
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| Krysta_101 |
| Freestyle rap has no electronic implications whatsoever and is also a form of hip hop. I am stayin' outta this though :nervous: |
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| tiesto14 |
Why do people INSIST on saying Hip-Hop is a genre of music....
It isn;t...like i have tryed to say again and again...
Hip-Hop is a culture..not a music genre...
Rap is it's owm genre
R&B is it;s own genre
neither one is a sub-genre of Hip-Hop:rolleyes: |
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| Ishkur |
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
How much overwhelming evidence do you need
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What ing evidence? You haven't given any! The only thing you've said after 80 bazillion pages is that the music isn't what you want it to be because you don't like it. That's been your argument the entire time. If you have an objective stipulation that can explain this, by all means...
PROVE IT
| quote: | Originally posted by Hydarnes
Show me where I said this. If I did, it was a grammatical mistake because I've never believed such a thing.
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*sigh* you can't even remember your own arguments.
Earlier, in ONE post, you said: "that Rap and Hip-Hop DO NOT rely on electronic instruments to keep the musical style going. You can just as easily replace the background “electronic sounds” that are often used with instruments "
And then, in that same post, you said "Surprise! So do Trance, House and Techno sometimes use instruments!!"
Okay....so they all use instruments. Yeah....and that does exactly what for your argument and your credibility? Besides shoot both full of so many holes you could use them as basketball hoops.
And it's funny how you keep bringing up rock music, as if that's some sort of silver bullet theory that etches your argument into granite. Rock music isn't sequenced. Utilizing a digital keyboard doesn't make your music anymore electronic than when Europe penned "The Final Countdown" on their Prophet-5.
Music that relies entirely on electronic instruments is electronic. I've said that since day 1. You pull the plug, the music stops. End of story, and this argument, which you lost umpteen pages ago. |
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