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flamebait resume advice (pg. 69)
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
I'm not. We were 10 ft away and I was stationary preceeding.I did not "get down" as the cop directed. |
Hmm...You neglected to mention that earlier.
| quote: | | When I didn't respond to his request he stated he would spray me. |
Hmm..another thing you neglected to mention. How many other details have you forgotten to mention in all of your "I'm innocent and being persecuted" stories?
| quote: | | At which time I covered my face as I wasn't aware what he would spray me with. There was no ongoing physical altercation at the time, I did however not acknowledge his command |
End of story. You're a dumbass. You were obviously behaving badly enough to prompt the cop to detain you..and you repeatedly ignored his commands and warnings. It was YOUR fault buddy. Stop blaming others for your own erratic behavior. |
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
Dude wasn't the case then. If the store clerk had reason to doubt your age they could refuse you sale. She didn't doubt my age. Even the researcher at the Fraser Institute agreed with me, and stated the clerk was at fault in regard for errrored judgment in refusal of sale. Legally she was obligated to sell to me unless she doubted my age, which she didn't. She refused me for internal store policy reasons, and was not diligent in her duties as a clerk to obtain her supervisor. She was frankly quite rude to start serving someone else before she fully dealt with the customer she was dealing with. |
This is not true.
I have worked in variety stores and I can tell you from experience... no one gives a how old the clerk thinks you are, you need to provide ID - period. If you don't provide ID when you are asked (even if you are 100), then you can be denied. That's the law and the right of the person selling the cigarettes (and alcohol for that matter). In fact, even if you did provide ID, the clerk STILL has the right to deny you if they so choose.
The fact that you insinuated you were going to steal something was reason for them to call the police on you.
Also, leaning over the counter is entering the space of the clerk and as such, you had no right to do it. |
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| w_ashley |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
She had reason to doubt your age because you didn’t have any ID. Her opinion on how old you might be is irrelevant. |
She didn't doubt my age, although not that credible she even stated it in court that she didn't believe I was under age. There was no such law requring production of ID at the time of the incident unless they were believed to be under age. There was no question. While it may play that way in your head - she deprived me of right of sale by not selling without just cause. Not having ID is not just cause unless you do not believe them to be of legal age. I must restate there was no legal requirement to produce ID if you were believed to be of legal age. It was discretionary, and she specifically did not doubt my age was legal for purchase. I had facial hair my appearance would not indicate I was a minor. I was frankly looking more like some old guy with long nails, not hey this person is in highschool. |
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| Theresa |
Furthermore, no one "has" to sell you anything. If someone doesn't want to sell something to you, they have all the right to deny you the sale, and in fact they have the right to deny you to even enter their store.
You had no "right" to cigarettes or anything else for that matter. Not listening to the police officer was what got you into , which was your own damn fault.
I am willing to bet this happened in the Forwells on Lancaster St., didn't it? |
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
She didn't doubt my age, although not that credible she even stated it in court that she didn't believe I was under age. There was no such law requring production of ID at the time of the incident unless they were believed to be under age. There was no question. While it may play that way in your head - she deprived me of right of sale by not selling without just cause. Not having ID is not just cause unless you do not believe them to be of legal age. I must restate there was no legal requirement to produce ID if you were believed to be of legal age. It was discretionary, and she specifically did not doubt my age was legal for purchase. I had facial hair my appearance would not indicate I was a minor. I was frankly looking more like some old guy with long nails, not hey this person is in highschool. |
This is complete bull!
Clearly you do not know the laws surrounding cigarette sales. IT IS NOT UP TO THE DISCRETION OF THE CLERK (unless it is inherently obvious that you are well over the legal age)!! You MUST provide ID (even 10 years ago you needed to), and if you are asked for it and do not provide it, you don't get the cigarettes. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
She didn't doubt my age, although not that credible she even stated it in court that she didn't believe I was under age. There was no such law requring production of ID at the time of the incident unless they were believed to be under age. There was no question. While it may play that way in your head - she deprived me of right of sale by not selling without just cause. Not having ID is not just cause unless you do not believe them to be of legal age. I must restate there was no legal requirement to produce ID if you were believed to be of legal age. It was discretionary, and she specifically did not doubt my age was legal for purchase. I had facial hair my appearance would not indicate I was a minor. I was frankly looking more like some old guy with long nails, not hey this person is in highschool. |
Many stores have policies that request ID for anyone who looks under a certain age, which may be well above the legal minimum age, and once they've asked you for ID they cannot serve you without it. Tough luck, they're not going to go against store policy, and any shop has the right to refuse customers. What you absolutely don't do is say "if you don't get them for me I'll get them myself" and then look like you're about to steal them. What the do you think you were going to achieve? Do you think she'd suddenly sell them to you if you grabbed them yourself? |
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| w_ashley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
This is not true. |
It was the law. Clerks had the discretion to doubt age and ask for ID to be produced. After my case they put in the books that the apperance must look atleast 25 or ID must be produced. Prior it was only 19. If you do not beleive me look up the laws in 2003 and 2005 and see how they differ.
| quote: | | I have worked in variety stores and I can tell you from experience... no one gives a how old the clerk thinks you are, you need to provide ID - period. |
Untrue at the time. So you are the one lying. There was no legal requirement for ID to be produced unless the clerk doubted you to be of age. At one point kids could bring notes from their parents to buy cigarettes.
| quote: | If you don't provide ID when you are asked (even if you are 100), then you can be denied. That's the law and the right of the person selling the cigarettes (and alcohol for that matter). In fact, even if you did provide ID, the clerk STILL has the right to deny you if they so choose.
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While this is partially true in regard to a request, at the time, and I do mean 2003, this was not the case. So while you think this may be it based upon your experiences, the laws have changed over time, and at the time this wasn't the case. So it is nonsense you are talking in regard to the time in which it happened, and the laws involved at the time. She was obligated to sell due to right of sale which states merchants cannot discriminate sale of goods being advertised in store and having a price preestablished, unless the law provides for refusal of sale. In this case sale was restricted by belief of legal purchase age. While after the case the law would have made it a requirement since i did not look 25 years of age, which it was changed to. At the time of the incident it was only that i appear to be 19 or older for me to be required to produce ID, unless the clerk had reason to believe I was a minor, which as stated, she did not, she believed me to be of legal age. I had bought cigarettes from her before on another occasion.
| quote: |
The fact that you insinuated you were going to steal something was reason for them to call the police on you. |
I didn't insinuate theft. I actually stated at the time my intent to pay for them.
| quote: | | Also, leaning over the counter is entering the space of the clerk and as such, you had no right to do it. |
As stated I didn't enter he space she came up to me.
The incident actually happened just after new years in 2004 like on the 6th or something. |
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Many stores have policies that request ID for anyone who looks under a certain age, which may be well above the legal minimum age, and once they've asked you for ID they cannot serve you without it. Tough luck, they're not going to go against store policy, and any shop has the right to refuse customers. What you absolutely don't do is say "if you don't get them for me I'll get them myself" and then look like you're about to steal them. What the do you think you were going to achieve? Do you think she'd suddenly sell them to you if you grabbed them yourself? |
Exactly.
The Ontario law for selling cigarettes (which I was TRAINED in because I worked for a variety store selling cigarettes for 5 years), is that if the person is not VERY OBVIOUSLY over the legal age, you must ask them for ID. If they don't produce ID, they don't get the cigarettes. If they produce ID and you don't feel confident that the ID is theirs, you must deny the sale.
The ing fines for selling to people who don't show ID is 25,000 for the store itself and something 5-10 thousand for the clerk!! They are not going to around with these rules in fear of fines AND losing their license to sell. |
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| epicaricacy |
...and then there was washley |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by ********
She didn't doubt my age, although not that credible she even stated it in court that she didn't believe I was under age. There was no such law requring production of ID at the time of the incident unless they were believed to be under age. There was no question. While it may play that way in your head - she deprived me of right of sale by not selling without just cause. Not having ID is not just cause unless you do not believe them to be of legal age. I must restate there was no legal requirement to produce ID if you were believed to be of legal age. It was discretionary, and she specifically did not doubt my age was legal for purchase. I had facial hair my appearance would not indicate I was a minor. I was frankly looking more like some old guy with long nails, not hey this person is in highschool. |
Having worked in retail, Mr. Ashley, I will tell you that as far back as 1989, they TRAINED us to card people, with or without facial hair, explaining that there were kids, as young as 13 who had full beards. It was, then, illegal to sell cigarettes to anyone younger than 18 and alcohol to anyone under 21. The law AND corporate HQ always took our side. You are wrong about your right to purchase and, if you'll look up the word, discretion, you'll find that the word goes both ways; not, simply, to a decision which favors you.
Legally, you have no right to purchase without consent of the seller. A common tactic was to leave money and leave with the beer in order to avoid being carded. If the clerk doesn't ring it up, however, that's nothing more or less than simple theft. |
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| w_ashley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
Exactly.
The Ontario law for selling cigarettes (which I was TRAINED in because I worked for a variety store selling cigarettes for 5 years), is that if the person is not VERY OBVIOUSLY over the legal age, you must ask them for ID. |
She stated she believed me to be of age twice, and also did so in court. |
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