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New York Yankees Thread (THIS THING OF OURS) (pg. 9)
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by trunks1022
he already had a long term deal in place with a no trade clause through 2011? something like that. he allowed the rockies to talk to whomever. red sox deal fell through because they were unwilling to give up a top prospect |
Ooooh, i read a headline on espn that he was happy in colorado or some like that, it gave me the impression he resigned. i didn't read the article because it told me he wasn't going to boston and that's all i cared about. Thanks for the info, I don't usually mess with NL stuff.
and thank god he didn't go to boston, highest active ba in the majors. Also a great 1b man. He's no joke. |
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| steven-neil |
| quote: | Originally posted by chanman7483
What rumors? |
many,,but first and foremost robinson cano going to the Mets |
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| Shamez214 |
| quote: | Originally posted by steven-neil
many,,but first and foremost robinson cano going to the Mets |
You can keep him. :p |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shamez214
You can keep him. :p |
wooow. Jose valentin over Robinson Cano, that's a dumb baseball move. Valentin isn't even a second baseman. You must not have noticed that Cano had a .342 BA and Valentin had a .271 BA.
Don't worry about that move happening, the yankees aren't about to deal him away. |
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| chanman7483 |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
Not a good idea because his BA isn't high enough and he strikes out too much. Someone in the second spot should be a contact hitter so that he can move over the leadoff man. Plus the sox would rather have a decent hitter behind manny to give him some protection. Drew is def. better than varitek.
Right field in boston is bigger than both Dodger stadium and the old busch stadium, and almost every homerun hit by Drew was to right field. This guy isn't going to put up better numbers at fenway.
A look at these dimensions will show that he shouldn't improve his power numbers:
Fenway - Right - 380 (pesky pole - 302); RC - 385; Center - 420
Dodger Stadium - Right - 330; RC - 385; Center - 395
Old Busch Stadium - Right - 330; RC - 372; Center - 402. |
You're overrating batting average - do some reading into OBP. The higher the onbase percentage of a player, the more runs they are going to score. The ability to move over a runner is definetly important, but giving up an out on a sac bunt or ground ball b/c they're a "contact hitter" is giving up an out - the last thing you want to do. I'd rather have a .270 hitter with a .390 OBP than a .320 hitter with a .340 OBP at the top of my lineup because they are on base more for Manny and Ortiz. That's why teams like the Nationals, Texas, and the Yankees were idiotic having Soriano in the 1 hole... his OBP is garbage.
Just because right field is bigger in Boston doesn't mean he's going to put up worse numbers. Boston, in general, is more generous on hitters than Dodger stadium... and that is a fact, backed up by the statistic, park factor. DImensions have very little to do with how many runs a team puts up - For example, Colorado is one of the biggest parks in the league, as far as dimensions are concerned, but runs are scored like no other in that park. And no, the altitude has little to do with it these days, as the balls are treated in a humidor before being used in Colorado. |
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| chanman7483 |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
Ooooh, i read a headline on espn that he was happy in colorado or some like that, it gave me the impression he resigned. i didn't read the article because it told me he wasn't going to boston and that's all i cared about. Thanks for the info, I don't usually mess with NL stuff.
and thank god he didn't go to boston, highest active ba in the majors. Also a great 1b man. He's no joke. |
I for one would've LOVED to see Helton go to Boston, as a Yankee fan. Remember, Helton played his whole career in Colorado, before they started using the new humidor treated baseballs there. Since they started using this a few years ago, this combined with injuries has turned Helton into a merely pedestrian hitter.
At home last year, he was:
.338/.445/.531 for a .976 OPS.
Away from Coors, he was:
.266/.360/.421 for a .781 OPS
In otherwords, as far as overall production goes, away from Coors, he is the equivalent of guys like Jamie Carrol, Shawn Greene, and Kenny Lofton, using OPS(On base + Slugging%). Combine this with his declining production over the past 3 years, his albatross of a contract through 2011, and wow... that's just something I wish the Red Sox picked up this offseason. Would he stilll be good? Yeah... for a year or two... but at no point would he be the Todd Helton we've seen in Colorado. Nowhere close. |
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| steven-neil |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shamez214
You can keep him. :p |
we are,,it was a misunderstanding on my friends part....basically hes changing his shirt number should clemens come to the bronx.... |
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| Shamez214 |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
wooow. Jose valentin over Robinson Cano, that's a dumb baseball move. Valentin isn't even a second baseman. You must not have noticed that Cano had a .342 BA and Valentin had a .271 BA.
Don't worry about that move happening, the yankees aren't about to deal him away. |
Obviously, if I were just choosing second basemen, I'd choose Cano over Valentin. However, to trade for him would cost way more in value than he is actually worth. He's not as good as he seems. |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by chanman7483
You're overrating batting average - do some reading into OBP. The higher the onbase percentage of a player, the more runs they are going to score. The ability to move over a runner is definetly important, but giving up an out on a sac bunt or ground ball b/c they're a "contact hitter" is giving up an out - the last thing you want to do. I'd rather have a .270 hitter with a .390 OBP than a .320 hitter with a .340 OBP at the top of my lineup because they are on base more for Manny and Ortiz. That's why teams like the Nationals, Texas, and the Yankees were idiotic having Soriano in the 1 hole... his OBP is garbage.
Just because right field is bigger in Boston doesn't mean he's going to put up worse numbers. Boston, in general, is more generous on hitters than Dodger stadium... and that is a fact, backed up by the statistic, park factor. DImensions have very little to do with how many runs a team puts up - For example, Colorado is one of the biggest parks in the league, as far as dimensions are concerned, but runs are scored like no other in that park. And no, the altitude has little to do with it these days, as the balls are treated in a humidor before being used in Colorado. |
i know all about OBP. You're .320 BA and .340 OBP is totally unrealistic. A normal batter has a OBP of .40 - .60 above the BA. So a .320 BA would mean a .360 - .380 BA. On top of that JD Drew is not going to be in the top of the order. He is probably going to hit after Manny. This means his high OBP will not mean as much because the batters after him will have lower BA's, SLG's, and OBPs and will not knock him in (Manny had 79 runs compared to Ortiz 115 runs). If he was hitting number two his low BA would be a bad fit. A first batter should have a high OBP with speed (which Drew does not). A 2 batter should be a good contact hitter to move the first batter over. Drew's lower BA means everything here. Sure he has a high OBP, but he also strikes out alot. A second hitter is meant to move over the first batter so the 3rd and cleanup hitter can knock in the runs.
You're right, the fact that RF in boston is bigger doesn't mean he is going to put up worse numbers, but it does increase the probability that he will put up worse power numbers. A bigger RF could very well increase singles and BA, but i doubt it will help his RBIs and HRs. |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shamez214
Obviously, if I were just choosing second basemen, I'd choose Cano over Valentin. However, to trade for him would cost way more in value than he is actually worth. He's not as good as he seems. |
Maybe so, but he's 24. |
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| chanman7483 |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
i know all about OBP. You're .320 BA and .340 OBP is totally unrealistic. A normal batter has a OBP of .40 - .60 above the BA. So a .320 BA would mean a .360 - .380 BA. On top of that JD Drew is not going to be in the top of the order. He is probably going to hit after Manny. This means his high OBP will not mean as much because the batters after him will have lower BA's, SLG's, and OBPs and will not knock him in (Manny had 79 runs compared to Ortiz 115 runs). If he was hitting number two his low BA would be a bad fit. A first batter should have a high OBP with speed (which Drew does not). A 2 batter should be a good contact hitter to move the first batter over. Drew's lower BA means everything here. Sure he has a high OBP, but he also strikes out alot. A second hitter is meant to move over the first batter so the 3rd and cleanup hitter can knock in the runs.
You're right, the fact that RF in boston is bigger doesn't mean he is going to put up worse numbers, but it does increase the probability that he will put up worse power numbers. A bigger RF could very well increase singles and BA, but i doubt it will help his RBIs and HRs. |
We can agree to disagree here - But I think guys at the top of the lineup should have good obp's, first and foremost. I think "contact" and "pesky" hitters are overrated... Figgins, Pierre, those guys. Why they bat at the top of the lineup is beyond me.
And with regards to the AVG/OBP differences, it's not unrealistic. Let's take a look Cano
Robinson Cano -
2005- ~.300 avg, .320 obp
2006- .345 avg, .365 OBP
As you can see, the only reason his OBP was better the following year was because of his higher batting average. However, it's only a 20 point differnece, like my example pointed out. If you recall, you'll remember that 2 years ago, Jeter was leading off and Cano was batting in the 2 hole at the time. The thinking was wow, this guy is a great contact hitter, he puts the bat on the ball. But then Torre realized his OBP sucked, came to his senses, and stuck him towards the bottom of the order where his crap OBP wouldn't do any harm.
Another example would be Jose Reyes circa 2005 - 275 avg, 300 obp... he had no business being in the 1 slot... but that's why the Mets are the Mets.
And yes, your point about Fenway taking away his power numbers is probably accurate. But he's going to become a doubles machine, with the monster being so close in LF and the big gaps in right center. He's a natural line drive hitter anyway... which is another reason he should be in the 2 hole, IMO.
And yes, a 2 hitter is supposed to move the runner into scoring position - but Drew has proven he can get on base at a clip of over .400. So, do you take the guy who can get the runner over 27% of the time with a hit and risk double plays in the process, or a guy who is a lock for getting on base(and moving runners over in the process), 40% of the time while decreasing the risk of double plays because he strikes out? BTW, his strikeout totals are a product of him taking a lot of pitches rather than being a free swinger... huge difference.
youkilis and drew 1 and 2 are the red sox best option. Having crisp or lugo in either spot would be a huge mistake for the red sox. |
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| jerZ07002 |
| quote: | Originally posted by chanman7483
We can agree to disagree here - But I think guys at the top of the lineup should have good obp's, first and foremost. I think "contact" and "pesky" hitters are overrated... Figgins, Pierre, those guys. Why they bat at the top of the lineup is beyond me.
And with regards to the AVG/OBP differences, it's not unrealistic. Let's take a look Cano
Robinson Cano -
2005- ~.300 avg, .320 obp
2006- .345 avg, .365 OBP
As you can see, the only reason his OBP was better the following year was because of his higher batting average. However, it's only a 20 point differnece, like my example pointed out. If you recall, you'll remember that 2 years ago, Jeter was leading off and Cano was batting in the 2 hole at the time. The thinking was wow, this guy is a great contact hitter, he puts the bat on the ball. But then Torre realized his OBP sucked, came to his senses, and stuck him towards the bottom of the order where his crap OBP wouldn't do any harm.
Another example would be Jose Reyes circa 2005 - 275 avg, 300 obp... he had no business being in the 1 slot... but that's why the Mets are the Mets.
And yes, your point about Fenway taking away his power numbers is probably accurate. But he's going to become a doubles machine, with the monster being so close in LF and the big gaps in right center. He's a natural line drive hitter anyway... which is another reason he should be in the 2 hole, IMO.
And yes, a 2 hitter is supposed to move the runner into scoring position - but Drew has proven he can get on base at a clip of over .400. So, do you take the guy who can get the runner over 27% of the time with a hit and risk double plays in the process, or a guy who is a lock for getting on base(and moving runners over in the process), 40% of the time while decreasing the risk of double plays because he strikes out? BTW, his strikeout totals are a product of him taking a lot of pitches rather than being a free swinger... huge difference.
youkilis and drew 1 and 2 are the red sox best option. Having crisp or lugo in either spot would be a huge mistake for the red sox. |
while i don't disagree with most of what you said, i think the examples you used for your OBP were bad. Cano was a second year man and so was Reyes. As everyone knows the hardest part of baseball is learning patience. So using canos difference in OBP and BA is flawed. I see what you are saying about having a high OBP in the 2 hole, but i think its the wrong move. Just remember the difference between a productive out and an unproductive out. That is probably one of the most underrated things in baseball. |
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