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so did McCain just blow it? (pg. 12)
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| Fledz |
| Arrrgghhh something must be done! |
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| getfoul |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Actually, she doesn't know where she stands on the war.
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/
Exit plan? Is that a withdrawal? But at least she watches the news, eh? |
What she said may actually be just what we, as a country, need. She focused on making Alaska a better place, and from what my girlfriend tells me (Alaska resident for many years), she's actually making a positive difference. We need a VP that will be focused on America and bring it back to be a better place. We need to stop focus on making everyone else happy, and get back to upping our moral and well being. If the Government put half as much energy into the country than they do on outside programs and funding, we wouldn't be in the crap we are now.
Edit: Is allowing people to choose what to accept and believe a BAD thing? Damn, I was under the impression that free will and free choice was what made us different from a dictatorship. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by getfoul
What she said may actually be just what we, as a country, need. She focused on making Alaska a better place, and from what my girlfriend tells me (Alaska resident for many years), she's actually making a positive difference. We need a VP that will be focused on America and bring it back to be a better place. We need to stop focus on making everyone else happy, and get back to upping our moral and well being. If the Government put half as much energy into the country than they do on outside programs and funding, we wouldn't be in the crap we are now.
Edit: Is allowing people to choose what to accept and believe a BAD thing? Damn, I was under the impression that free will and free choice was what made us different from a dictatorship. |
I think you're missing the point. That's the only time she's ever mentioned Iraq in a public statement. Ever. She has no record on the single largest issue affecting our foreign policy and national security and she's running for the second highest office in the land - one that typically requires readiness to be commander-in-chief as a job qualification.
It's not like she just thinks about it differently or has a different point of view - she doesn't HAVE a point of view. |
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| getfoul |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
I think you're missing the point. That's the only time she's ever mentioned Iraq in a public statement. Ever. She has no record on the single largest issue affecting our foreign policy and national security and she's running for the second highest office in the land - one that typically requires readiness to be commander-in-chief as a job qualification.
It's not like she just thinks about it differently or has a different point of view - she doesn't HAVE a point of view. |
Either that or she hasn't been corrupted and thrown into the pockets of the big industries. It's refreshing to have a clear mind running. I'm welcoming the idea of having her as VP. You don't get an 80% approval rating with being a dip.
Edit: Here's my point of view. Like I stated in my previous post, Why are you so against someone who wants to focus on the country? She hasn't made any major statements against our foreign wars because it's not her business to make statements like that. She isn't poking her nose where it isn't needed. That doesn't mean she doesn't have an opinion, that means she's sticking to what needs to be done. That's running her state, and she's doing it well. |
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| chimera66 |
i work with a pretty avid republican and she flipped out with the announcement of mccain's running mate. either way, he made a huge mistake choosing someone who according to my co-worker is only good for having babies and winning beauty contests. i don't think most americans want that woman two steps away from the presidency...it would be one thing mccain was healthy and could last an entire term but the guy might die any day now. i'm happy with his decision, more votes for obama :D
also, that woman is gonna get pwned during her debates :haha: |
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| Ted Promo |
| quote: | Originally posted by getfoul
You don't get an 80% approval rating with being a dip. |
You do it by running a campaign where you shake the hands of 150 people which happen to be 80% of the state's population :p |
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| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by sean5
seeing as she's actually been in charge and has run a state where as he's never run anything besides his mouth, i would say she has the upper hand. she's been in politics since 92 at the city and state level. he's been in the senate 2 years and has done nothing. also i should mention that she is not nearly as opaque as obama. unlike him, she can actually take a stance on an issue. |
She lived in Wasilla Alaska her whole life, a sheltered christian, has "just never thought about it" re: Iraq, has 0 Foreign Policy experience whatsoever, and holds a BA in journalism from the University of Idaho.
If you think those a fine credentials for the #2 spot in the United States government you are out of your ing mind...
Laundry lists aside, Obama has demonstrated the knowledge, understanding, and tenacity to be president.
The only thing she has going for her is that she's a whistle-blower regardless of party affiliation.
| quote: | | Governor Murkowski appointed Palin Ethics Commissioner of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission,[19] where she served from 2003 to 2004 until resigning in protest over what she called the "lack of ethics" of fellow Alaskan Republican leaders, who ignored her whistleblowing complaints of legal violations and conflicts of interest.[20][3] After she resigned, she exposed the state Republican Party's chairman, Randy Ruedrich, one of her fellow Oil & Gas commissioners, who was accused of doing work for the party on public time, and supplying a lobbyist with a sensitive e-mail.[21] Palin filed formal complaints against both Ruedrich and former Alaska Attorney General Gregg Renkes, who both resigned; Ruedrich paid a record $12,000 fine.[3 |
We'll see more predictable replies by McCain supporters here, but if you have any kind of education or ability to look at the realities of the candidates, and the facts, the choice is clear...Obama's "empty rhetoric" can get chastised all you want but the rest of us understand he knows what he needs to deliver, what needs to be done, and if elected he will have the tools, capacity, and understanding necessary to deliver. McCain's policies will destroy this country.
Palin is going to be McCain's bitch. She has so little experience she will just be told what and what not to do and to shut the up otherwise, this is in line with McCain's style... |
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| Clovis |
| quote: | Originally posted by getfoul
Edit: Here's my point of view. Like I stated in my previous post, Why are you so against someone who wants to focus on the country? She hasn't made any major statements against our foreign wars because it's not her business to make statements like that. She isn't poking her nose where it isn't needed. That doesn't mean she doesn't have an opinion, that means she's sticking to what needs to be done. That's running her state, and she's doing it well. |
Because I don't want a sheltered Alaskan creationist with no views or idea of the WORLD to be elected to the #2 position in the United States of America. She's not smart enough. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
| quote: | Originally posted by getfoul
Either that or she hasn't been corrupted and thrown into the pockets of the big industries. It's refreshing to have a clear mind running. I'm welcoming the idea of having her as VP. You don't get an 80% approval rating with being a dip.
Edit: Here's my point of view. Like I stated in my previous post, Why are you so against someone who wants to focus on the country? She hasn't made any major statements against our foreign wars because it's not her business to make statements like that. She isn't poking her nose where it isn't needed. That doesn't mean she doesn't have an opinion, that means she's sticking to what needs to be done. That's running her state, and she's doing it well. |
Then let her continue to run her state well and leave the second-highest national office in the land to someone who has an opinion or experience dealing with, um, NATIONAL issues.
She could step in and be commander in chief at a moment's notice, and it's clear that she doesn't even KNOW what's going on in Iraq other than what she's heard on the news. She's never dealt with the issue on the job? Fine, but she should at least have formulated opinions about it as a basic qualification.
This isn't an experience argument in the sense that she doesn't know how to govern. It's that she knows literally nothing about the largest issues that are confronting our country today. If you want to play russian roulette with our future, go ahead and vote for her - I'm just trying to let you know the stakes.
And as for your "free of the big industries" comment - you make me laugh with that one. If anybody is in the bag for Big Oil, it's "just keep drilling" Sarah Palin.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/...nd_big_oil.html |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
So apparently Palin was an Obama fan.... the plot thickens.
| quote: | Palin on Obama
by Philip Gourevitch September 8, 2008
Before she was running against him, Sarah Palin—the governor of Alaska and now the Republican candidate for Vice-President of the United States—thought it was pretty neat that Barack Obama was edging ahead of John McCain in her usually solidly red state. After all, she said, Obama’s campaign was using the same sort of language that she had in her gubernatorial race. “The theme of our campaign was ‘new energy,’ ” she said recently. “It was no more status quo, no more politics as usual, it was all about change. So then to see that Obama—literally, part of his campaign uses those themes, even, new energy, change, all that, I think, O.K., well, we were a little bit ahead on that.” She also noted, “Something’s kind of changing here in Alaska, too, for being such a red state on the Presidential level. Obama’s doing just fine in polls up here, which is kind of wigging people out, because they’re saying, ‘This hasn’t happened for decades that in polls the D’ ”—the Democratic candidate—“ ‘is doing just fine.’ To me, that’s indicative, too. It’s the no-more-status-quo, it’s change.”
This was two weeks ago, at the statehouse in Juneau. After persistent reports, in July, that Palin was on McCain’s short list of potential running mates, her name had faded back into obscurity. Nobody in Alaska seemed to take her seriously as a national prospect, and she had shrugged the whole thing off on television, telling CNBC’s Larry Kudlow that, before considering the job, she would want to know “what is it, exactly, that the V.P. does every day.” Now, at the statehouse, she sat, unattended by aides, curled up in a cardigan, and explained that what she had done every day since becoming governor was to stick her thumb in the eye of Alaska’s Republican Party establishment. “The G.O.P. leader of the state—we haven’t spoken since I got elected,” she said.
She went on, “I guess if you take the individual issues, two that I believe would be benchmarks showing whether you’re a hard-core Republican conservative or not, would be: I’m a lifetime member of the N.R.A.—but this is Alaska, who isn’t?—and I am pro-life, absolutely.” She continued, “I guess that puts me in a box of being hard-core Republican.” But she said she recognized that “the Democrats also preach individual freedoms and individual rights, capitalism, free market, let-it-do-its-thing-best, let people keep as much of their money that they earn as possible. And when it comes to, like, the Party machine, no one will accuse me of being partisan.”
So the possibility that Obama might win Alaska did not worry Palin: “Turning maybe purple in the state means, to me, it’s more independent, it’s not the obsessive partisanship that gets in the way of doing what’s right for this state, and I think on a national level that’s what we’re gonna see.” And she added, “That’s why McCain is the candidate for the G.O.P.—because he’s been known as the maverick, as the conduit for some change.” In the state’s Republican caucus, McCain came in fourth, trailing Ron Paul. “I always looked at Senator McCain just as a Joe Blow public member, looking from the outside in,” she said. “He’s been buttin’ heads with Republicans for years, and that’s a healthy place to be.” Then again, on McCain’s signature issue—the prosecution of the war in Iraq—she did not sound so gung-ho. Her son is a soldier, and she said, “I’m a mom, and my son is going to get deployed in September, and we better have a real clear plan for this war. And it better not have to do with oil and dependence on foreign energy.” |
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2008/...talk_gourevitch
Anybody have a list of the GOP talking points in response to this one? |
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| getfoul |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Then let her continue to run her state well and leave the second-highest national office in the land to someone who has an opinion or experience dealing with, um, NATIONAL issues.
She could step in and be commander in chief at a moment's notice, and it's clear that she doesn't even KNOW what's going on in Iraq other than what she's heard on the news. She's never dealt with the issue on the job? Fine, but she should at least have formulated opinions about it as a basic qualification.
This isn't an experience argument in the sense that she doesn't know how to govern. It's that she knows literally nothing about the largest issues that are confronting our country today. If you want to play russian roulette with our future, go ahead and vote for her - I'm just trying to let you know the stakes.
And as for your "free of the big industries" comment - you make me laugh with that one. If anybody is in the bag for Big Oil, it's "just keep drilling" Sarah Palin.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/...nd_big_oil.html |
I understand and knew about the oil industry, but that's only one of many industries that try to sink their claws into politicians. I don't claim to know everything, I just don't discredit someone before they have a chance to step up and show that they are incompetent on a national level. Lets try to leave oil drilling out of it, but I'll say that the oil drilling in Alaska is helping the little critters more than it's hurting them. |
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| Lebezniatnikov |
Pretty comprehensive:
| quote: | Robert J. Elisberg
The Worst Vice-Presidential Nominee in U.S. History
Posted August 29, 2008 | 04:30 PM (EST)
There was a TV ad for deodorant that said, "Never let them see you sweat." The John McCain campaign has just showed the world that it is drenched.
Selecting Sarah Palin as its choice for a vice presidential candidate is perhaps the worst such choice in American History. To be fair, maybe there are worse choices, but I don't know how bad William O. Butler was when he ran with Lewis Cass against Zachary Taylor.
But it's far worse than Dan Quayle, who was a sitting senator. Worse even than Geraldine Ferraro, who at least served in Congress for three-terms. And far worse than William Miller, a choice so obscure when selected by Barry Goldwater that he (honestly) later did an American Express commercial asking, "Do you know me?" And that ad was after the election. But even Miller had been a Congressman for 12 years. And been a prosecutor during the Nuremberg War trials against Nazis. Sarah Palin lists her credits as a hockey mom.
There was a point during the Republican primaries when I was trying to figure out who I hoped got the presidential nomination. Someone so weak he'd be easy for the Democrats to beat, or someone more challenging who at least wouldn't be a disaster for America. I decided on the latter because America has to resolve its serious problems and can't afford risking some glitch where another George Bush got elected. And so I felt that John McCain, for all his weaknesses, was the lesser of all evils and was glad he got the nomination. Throw that out the window. McCain-Palin is an unthinkable disaster.
I completely understand the reasoning behind the decision for John McCain to select Sarah Palin. Absolutely. It's the thinking that settled on Sarah Palin that's missing.
No doubt John McCain will get some women to vote for him who wouldn't have otherwise, and even some independents. But he will also probably lose as many Republicans uncomfortable with a woman on the ticket - let alone a woman with so little experience as Sarah Palin. Not to mention that the choice will cause many undecided Democratic women to be aghast and push them back to following their Democratic beliefs. And further, it will lose all the independents who look at the GOP ticket and say "This is who I'm supposed to give my vote for the next four years to lead and protect America??" It may even appeal to right-wing evangelicals for her strong pro-life stance and get some to vote - but that position and others related to it are specifically what loses even more women voters. And men. Ultimately, the nomination will lose far, far more votes than it gains.
But this is not the reason the decision is so terrible.
It's always said that the most important decision a presidential candidate makes is their pick for vice president. It shows their thinking and judgment. John McCain, in his first decision, has just told the world that he believes Sarah Palin is the most qualified person to be a heartbeat from the presidency. Forgetting all the available men for a moment, if John McCain felt it critical to select a woman in an effort to somehow grab the Hillary Clinton supporters, look at his choice of women he had available: Christine Todd Whitman, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Elizabeth Dole, Susan Collins, even - for goodness sake - Condoleezza Rice. Or Carly Fiorina. Each of these have marks against them, and perhaps some might not have wanted to run, but it's near-impossible to look at the list and suggest to the American public that Sarah Palin is the best choice of Republican women to be vice president. And again, this is ignoring the men he who could have been chosen.
It's not that Sarah Palin is inexperienced. It's that this is gross political misconduct.
Sarah Palin has been governor of Alaska for just a bit over 18 months. Alaska has a population of 683,000. (Though that doesn't include moose.) This would only make it the 17th most populous city in the United States. Just ahead of Fort Worth.
Before that, she was mayor of Wasilla, Alaska. Population 9,000. I know Republicans like to promote "small town values," but this is taking things to ridiculous extremes, don't you think? I'm from Glencoe, Illinois, population 8,762. It's so small it doesn't even have a mayor, it has an appointed village manager. I'm sure that Paul Harlow is doing wonderfully at his job in the village - but I don't expect that he sees himself as even wanting to be a heartbeat from the U.S. President in 18 months. You know what the top news story is on the Glencoe website? "Fire Hydrant Painting Underway." (To be fair, it's the #2 story. The top news is a clarification about displaying political signage.)
Do you know what the first two "powers and duties" are for the mayor of Wasilla, Alaska? Check their municipal code:
| quote: | 1. Preside at council meetings. The mayor may take part in the discussion of matters before the council, but may not vote, except that the mayor may vote in the case of a tie;
2. Act as ceremonial head of the city; |
Swell.
If you live in small town America (and I mean really, really small), look around you and be honest - do you see your mayor (or village manager) as a heartbeat from the presidency in 18 months?
But that's not the reason either that the decision to make Sarah Palin the VP nominee is so terrible.
It's one thing to discuss how unqualified Sarah Palin is. That's a national matter and huge. But on a grassroots political level, her nomination takes away the Republicans' ONLY weapon in the campaign - calling Barack Obama inexperienced. They haven't even been trying to run on the issues, or on the eight-year record of George Bush, which John McCain has supported almost 95% of the time. They've only been running on the faux-issue of Barack Obama's experience of 14 years in federal and state government. Yes, Sarah Palin is merely running for VP, not president, but with a 72 year-old candidate with a history of serious medical issues, this is who they're saying is able to step in as president in a heart-beat. She has so little experience that she makes Sen. Obama look like FDR, Winston Churchill and Julius Caesar combined. So, the Republicans pulled the rug out from under themselves. They have no issues. The economy? Housing? The national debt? Education? The Environment? Iraq? Afghanistan? Nothing. All they have is "Dear Democratic women: please pretend our VP candidate is Hillary Clinton. Just forget that she's pro-life. And against most things Democrats stand for."
But that's not the reason the decision is so terrible.
Because if the hope for John McCain is to get women to vote for him who otherwise supported Hillary Clinton - if anything could get Hillary Clinton campaigning in full force and fury...this is it. She likely would have campaigned hard, but it's in Hillary Clinton's best interest to be the leading voice for women, and the leading woman candidate for president in the future, so having another woman as the potential Vice President (and potential President) is a significant challenge to that. The Republicans just opened Pandora's Box and brought Hillary Clinton roaring to Barack Obama's side on the Democratic train. And Bill Clinton, too.
Yet even that's not the reason the decision is so terrible.
What this does in the most profound and grandiose way possible is give lie to John McCain's pompous posturing that he Always Puts America First. And that undercuts the most prominent campaign issue of his entire career, that everything he does is for reasons of honor. There is nothing honorable about making Sarah Palin your vice presidential nominee. Nothing. Unless you define honor as "blatantly pandering."
But that's not the reason either that this decision is so terrible.
But before we get to that, let's look at the actual announcement to make Gov. Sarah Palin (AK - pop. 683,000) the Republican nominee for president, and put the horrible decision in perspective.
First, John McCain stood at the podium, looking up-and-down reading his speech. It's impossible not to compare that to Barack Obama giving his majestic speech the night before that even conservative analysts were admiring in awe.
Second, the cameras were polite enough to avoid it, but there were empty seats in the gym. It's impossible not to compare that to a stadium of 75,000 people that Barack Obama spoke to the night before.
Third, when people around the nation were waiting to hear about Sarah Palin's qualifications and gravitas to be Vice President of the United States, the first five minutes of her speech were spent talking about her husband being a champion snowmobiler.
Fourth, when she finally got around to her qualifications, pretty much all we discovered was that she fought to cut property taxes. And then, she basically stopped there.
She did, however, mention becoming energy self-sufficient - by talking about how she supported drilling in Alaska!!! Perhaps to Republicans this is being an environmentalist, but to most of America, not so much. Then again, she's also against putting polar bears on the endangered species list (which the government did), so maybe her environmental qualifications are more lax than she thinks.
And then, finally, she spent the rest of her time praising John McCain. Fine, that's very supportive of her...except that the one question on everyone's mind was not -- "can you say John McCain is a swell guy and tell us that he was a POW", the question on everyone's mind was - "Who in God's name are you, and please tell us why you should be a heart-beat from the presidency?"
In the end, the only case she herself made for being on the ticket was praising Hillary Clinton! That's it, period. Now, it might be enough to attract some women -- but it doesn't make a case for the ticket. Why? Hint: some women did vote for Hillary Clinton solely because she was a woman. But most women voted for Hillary Clinton because she was a Democrat, as well as a woman, who stood for important Democratic values they seriously believed in. If Sarah Palin wants to praise Hillary Clinton, go for it. But at least understand what you're praising. Because it will likely come back and bite you.
It was a thin, nothing, empty speech. It was a speech to be head of the Chamber of Commerce. Compare that to the speech by Joe Biden when Barack Obama introduced him. Eloquent, soaring and explaining in blunt detail why John McCain should not be president. Joe Biden must have been watching Sarah Palin's speech, in order to take notes in preparation for his debate with her and thought, "This isn't fair."
And all that's not even the reason the decision is so terrible.
The reason is because the election is not about Sarah Palin. Or about Joe Biden. As much as TV analysts want to be excited by the balloons and hoopla, tomorrow the air will be let out, and there are still over two months to go for the campaign.
The campaign is about Barack Obama and John McCain.
Sarah Palin's nomination doesn't change that. In fact, it reinforces it. Nothing about putting Sarah Palin on the GOP ticket changes a word that Barack Obama said in his vibrant acceptance speech - about himself, about his issues, and about John McCain's repeatedly faulty judgment on the critical issues facing America.
What Sarah Palin's nomination does do is focus attention on John McCain's age. Indeed, the nomination was made on his birthday, when he turned 72, the oldest man ever to run for president. As the crowd sang "Happy Birthday to You," you almost sensed that through John McCain's clenched smile, saying, "Thanks for reminding me," that what he was thinking underneath was "Please, oh, please, don't sing the 'How old are you now?' part." And how good a message was it that he's saying he supposedly forgot it was his birthday?
Vice presidents are usually selected as people who are adept at blasting the other side's presidential candidate, because it's only the presidential candidate that matters. Joe Biden has already done that - twice - at length, spoken as someone who knows John McCain well and likes him. Sarah Palin had her first chance...and whiffed. Didn't even try. And it's hard to imagine what she has in her arsenal that will remotely allow her to do so in the future.
The election is about the presidential candidates. And the selection of Sarah Palin now allows Barack Obama to campaign untouched by the Republican ticket. John McCain's only other option is for himself to personally become negative for two months - which is disaster in presidential politics.
Now add on all the problems expressed above. Sarah Palin's inexplicably laughable lack of substance, most-especially on the foreign policy stage. Her taking away the one issue, experience, Republicans were even attempting. Her pushing away voters who might otherwise be willing to vote for a senator with 26 years in the Senate. Her bringing Hillary Clinton aggressively back into the campaign. Her inability to offer anything to off-set Joe Biden. Her standing as supposedly the most-qualified Republican woman as John McCain's first decision.
And, in the end, it all focuses back on Barack Obama, with his indictment of eight years of the Bush Administration and of John McCain's flawed judgment - and John McCain's defense of all that.
Republicans might be dancing earlier today, because there was a lot of fun music playing. But the music has stopped. The actual campaign has now started. For Republicans, it might have ended. |
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rober...i_b_122491.html |
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