Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Whatever floats your boat.
wow a real profile in courage. great.
lets give ShaolinZ a round of applause ladies and gentlemen.
ogvh5150
quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Whatever floats your boat.
In the time it takes some people to bash you on the thread they can take the time watch something other than tmz or youtube viral videos. Better yet in the time it takes some to even respond to you they could watch something other than viral videos or that funny fwd:fwd:fwd funny pic email.
colonelcrisp
quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
LOL, what a nut!
That's what you sound like majority of the time in this thread btw PKC :D
if you ignore all the swearing.... the guy is ripping these guys to shreds and all they can say is "building 7 building 7" or "secret military explosives"..... and the buzz word "steven jones" they explained nothing, and they proved nothing....
as for the guy getting worked up over it. well its understandable... he lives in that area and saw it all go down... its pretty emotional for them, compared to someone from ohio...
Story reported by NICK REISMAN, VERONIKA BELENKAYA, NICOLE BODE, ALISON GENDAR, MELISSA GRACE and DORIAN BLACK.
Written by ADAM NICHOLS
Sunday, August 19th 2007, 4:53 AM
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Firefighters peer up yesterday at the raging inferno they fought all evening in the former Deutsche Bank tower near Ground Zero.
Firefighters peer up yesterday at the raging inferno they fought all evening in the former Deutsche Bank tower near Ground Zero.
Joe Graffagnino
Joe Graffagnino
Robert Beddia
Robert Beddia
An injured firefighter is evacuated just steps away from The Pit.
An injured firefighter is evacuated just steps away from The Pit.
Two firefighters were killed yesterday when a nightmarish inferno engulfed a vacant skyscraper overlooking Ground Zero that was left decimated by the 9/11 attacks.
Fallen heroes Joe Graffagnino, 33, and Robert Beddia, 53, ran out of oxygen while trapped inside the former Deutsche Bank building, a maze-like warren of debris, sources said.
They died steps from The Pit where 343 of their brethren perished when the twin towers fell on Sept. 11, 2001 - including 11 from their own Engine 24/Ladder 5 firehouse.
"That house being hit again makes it all the more devastating," Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta said at NYU Downtown Hospital.
Mayor Bloomberg called the deaths "another cruel blow to our city and to our Fire Department."
The blaze engulfed 10 floors of the eyesore and burned for seven hours - sending a cloud of black smoke over lower Manhattan and rousing painful 9/11 memories.
As flaming debris rained down, cops evacuated nearby apartments, and local residents worried about toxic fallout from the contaminated site.
The office tower, which was damaged when the south tower at the World Trade Center collapsed, was being dismantled floor by floor after years of delays.
Once 40 stories, it was down to 26 floors when the fire started on the 14th floor around 3:30 p.m.
The cause of the blaze was unknown, but a construction crew was working there yesterday afternoon and a police source said one of them may have been smoking.
The fire eventually went to seven alarms, drawing hundreds of Bravest to the scene. Five other firefighters were injured.
Graffagnino, an eight-year veteran from Brooklyn, and Beddia, a 23-year veteran from Staten Island, were running a hose up when they got trapped on the 14th floor, where they were found unconscious.
They suffered smoke inhalation that caused cardiac arrest, officials said.
They had air tanks, but it appears the oxygen ran out before they were found, a source said.
A paramedic who struggled to save one of the victims said it was a hopeless situation.
"He was dead from the moment they brought him out of the building," the emergency worker said. "We tried everything ... but nothing helped."
The loss seemed senseless to some firefighters.
"The city lets that building sit there for what, going on six years, and now two more firefighters die?" said one who worked with Graffagnino and Beddia. "It makes me sick."
Battling the flames was harrowing because of the condition of the partly demolished building - including a lack of water outlets inside.
"This fire was a nightmare. The standpipes for water were out of commission because the building was being torn apart," said a firefighter.
"Every floor was wrapped in heavy plastic sheeting because of the asbestos abatement work being done.
"Only one of the two construction elevators was working.
"Getting in and out was a mess - and two men died for this cursed building," the firefighter said.
Another said, "It was a maze inside. The building was a shell filled with combustibles."
Flaming plywood that had been nailed across windows destroyed on 9/11 fell to the ground, close to passersby and fire trucks, said witnesses.
Glass showered onto sidewalks as much as three hours after the fire first erupted.
More than four hours after the first report, it was upgraded to a seven-alarm.
The blaze was still not under control when the deaths of Graffagnino and Beddia were announced at NYU Downtown Hospital.
The widow of one of the men was inconsolable when she arrived.
"She was screaming, 'Please, let me know, is he dead?'" said Evelyn Franco, who was with a sick relative in the ER when the firefighters' families showed up.
"She was shouting, 'Oh my God, please, don't take him away.'She was hysterical. The place was full of firefighters. There were hundreds of them."
The mayor visited relatives at the hospital and reassured the public there was no health threat from the fire - even though asbestos and other hazards had been dumped on the building on 9/11.
Cops put in place a mandatory evacuation of 120 Greenwich Ave., an apartment building they feared could be hit by falling debris.
Voluntary evacuations were put in place at 106 and 110 Greenwich Ave.
Bloomberg dismissed claims the empty shell was in danger of collapse - but some residents were still concerned about its stability and the air quality.
"We worry about this building on a daily basis," said Battery Park City resident Tom Goodkind, 53, who was wearing a gas mask. "There's a scary amount of toxic chemicals in there."
The smoke from the fire was so thick it poured across the Hudson River to New Jersey and could be seen from midtown.
"We saw the smoke and we joked that it was coming from where the World Trade Center disaster was," said tourist Suhas Narkhede, 39, from Toronto.
"Then we saw the flames and thought, 'Oh no.' Bad things keep happening here."
Article used without permission for educational, non-commercial use only.
pkcRAISTLIN
^^ funny how these idiots still dont understand a damned thing :rolleyes:
please, someone illustrate to me why this is comparable to the WTCs in any way, shape or form.
just another non sequitur in a long line of non sequiturs.
James James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), has called for an independent review of NIST’s investigation into the collapses of the World Trade Center Towers on 9/11.
Dr. Quintiere made his plea during his presentation, “Questions on the WTC Investigations” at the 2007 World Fire Safety Conference. “I wish that there would be a peer review of this,” he said, referring to the NIST investigation. “I think all the records that NIST has assembled should be archived. I would really like to see someone else take a look at what they’ve done; both structurally and from a fire point of view.”
“I think the official conclusion that NIST arrived at is questionable,” explained Dr. Quintiere. “Let's look at real alternatives that might have been the cause of the collapse of the World Trade Towers and how that relates to the official cause and what's the significance of one cause versus another.”
Dr. Quintiere, one of the world’s leading fire science researchers and safety engineers, also encouraged his audience of fellow researchers and engineers to scientifically re-examine the WTC collapses. “I hope to convince you to perhaps become 'Conspiracy Theorists', but in a proper way,” he said.
In his hour-long presentation, Dr. Quintiere discussed many elements of NIST’s investigation that he found problematic. He emphasized, “In every investigation I’ve taken part in, the key has been to establish a timeline. And the timeline is established by witness accounts, by information from alarm systems, by any video that you might have of the event, and then by calculations. And you try to put all of this together. And if your calculations are consistent with some of these hard facts, then perhaps you can have some comfort in the results of your calculations. I have not seen a timeline placed in the NIST report.”
Dr. Quintiere also expressed his frustration at NIST’s failure to provide a report on the third skyscraper that collapsed on 9/11, World Trade Center Building 7. “And that building was not hit by anything,” noted Dr. Quintiere. “It’s more important to take a look at that. Maybe there was damage by the debris falling down that played a significant role. But other than that you had fires burning a long time without fire department intervention. And firefighters were in that building. I have yet to see any kind of story about what they saw. What was burning? Were photographs taken? Nothing!”
World Trade Center Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories, and would have been the tallest building in 33 states. Although it was not hit by an airplane on 9/11, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 8 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11. In the 6 years since 9/11, NIST has failed to provide any explanation for the collapse. In addition to NIST’s failure to provide an explanation, absolutely no mention of Building 7’s collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks." [To watch a video of the collapse, click here http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/I...C7_Collapse.wmv]
Dr. Quintiere said he originally “had high hopes” that NIST would do a good job with the investigation. “They’re the central government lab for fire. There are good people there and they can do a good job. But what I also thought they would do is to enlist the service of the ATF [Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives], which has an investigation force and a laboratory of their own for fire. And I thought they would put people out on the street and get gumshoe-type information. What prevented all of this? I think it’s the legal structure that cloaks the Commerce Department and therefore NIST. And so, instead of lawyers as if they were acting on a civil case trying to get depositions and information subpoenaed, those lawyers did the opposite and blocked everything.”
In his presentation, Dr. Quintiere also criticized NIST’s repeated failures to formally respond to serious questions raised about its conclusions regarding the WTC building collapses and the process it employed to arrive at those conclusions. “I sat through all of the NIST hearings. I went to all of their advisory board meetings, as an observer. I made comments at all.”
Responding to a comment from a NIST representative in the audience, Dr. Quintiere said, “I found that throughout your whole investigation it was very difficult to get a clear answer. And when anyone went to your advisory panel meetings or hearings, where they were given five minutes to make a statement; they could never ask any questions. And with all the commentary that I put in, and I spent many hours writing things, and it would bore people if I regurgitated all of that here, I never received one formal reply.”
Although Dr. Quintiere was strongly critical of NIST’s conclusions and its investigatory process, he made it clear he was not a supporter of theories that the Twin Towers were brought down by pre-planted explosives. “If you go to World Trade Center One, nine minutes before its collapse, there was a line of smoke that puffed out. This is one of the basis of the ‘conspiracy theories’ that says the smoke puffing out all around the building is due to somebody setting off an explosive charge. Well, I think, more likely, it’s one of the floors falling down.”
Dr. Quintiere summarized the NIST conclusion about the cause of the collapses of the Twin Towers. “It says that the core columns, uninsulated due to the fact that the aircraft stripped off that insulation; they softened in the heat of the fire and shortened and that led to the collapse. They pulled in the external columns and it caused it to buckle. They went on further to say that there would be no collapse if the insulation remained in place.”
Dr. Quintiere then presented his and his students’ research that contradicts the NIST report and points to a different cause for the collapses; the application of insufficient fire-proofing insulation on the truss rods in the Twin Towers. “I suggest that there’s an equally justifiable theory and that’s the trusses fail as they are heated by the fire with the insulation intact. These are two different conclusions and the accountability for each is dramatically different,” he said.
Dr. Quintiere’s presentation at the World Fire Safety Conference echoed his earlier statement to the U.S. House of Representatives, Committee on Science, on October 26, 2005, during a hearing on “The Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapse: Findings, Recommendations, and Next Steps”, at which he stated:
“In my opinion, the WTC investigation by NIST falls short of expectations by not definitively finding cause, by not sufficiently linking recommendations of specificity to cause, by not fully invoking all of their authority to seek facts in the investigation, and by the guidance of government lawyers to deter rather than develop fact finding.
"I have over 35 years of fire research in my experience. I worked in the fire program at NIST for 19 years, leaving as a division chief. I have been at the University of Maryland since. I am a founding member and past-Chair of the International Association for Fire Safety Science—the principal world forum for fire research. ...
"All of these have been submitted to NIST, but never acknowledged or answered. I will list some of these.
1. Why is not the design process of assigning fire protection to the WTC towers fully called out for fault? ...
2. Why were not alternative collapse hypotheses investigated and discussed as NIST had stated repeatedly that they would do? ...
3. Spoliation of a fire scene is a basis for destroying a legal case in an investigation. Most of the steel was discarded, although the key elements of the core steel were demographically labeled. A careful reading of the NIST report shows that they have no evidence that the temperatures they predict as necessary for failure are corroborated by findings of the little steel debris they have. Why hasn't NIST declared that this spoliation of the steel was a gross error?
4. NIST used computer models that they said have never been used in such an application before and are the state of the art. For this they should be commended for their skill. But the validation of these modeling results is in question. Others have computed aspects with different conclusions on the cause mechanism of the collapse. Moreover, it is common in fire investigation to compute a time-line and compare it to known events. NIST has not done that.
5. Testing by NIST has been inconclusive. Although they have done fire tests of the scale of several work stations, a replicate test of at least & [sic] of a WTC floor would have been of considerable value. Why was this not done? ...
6. The critical collapse of WTC 7 is relegated to a secondary role, as its findings will not be complete for yet another year. It was clear at the last NIST Advisory Panel meeting in September [2005] that this date may not be realistic, as NIST has not demonstrated progress here. Why has NIST dragged on this important investigation?"
Dr. Quintiere is one of the world’s leading fire science researchers and safety engineers. He served in the Fire Science and Engineering Division of NIST for 19 years and rose to the position of Chief of the Division. He left NIST in 1990 to join the faculty of the Department of Fire Protection Engineering at the University of Maryland, where he still serves.
Quintiere is a founding member and Past Chair of the International Association for Fire Safety Science (IAFSS). He is also a Fellow of the Society of Fire Protection Engineering and a Fellow of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers. He has received numerous awards for his contributions to fire science research and engineering, including:
· The Department of Commerce Bronze Medal (1976) and Silver Medal (1982)
· The Howard W. Emmons Lecture Award from the IAFSS in 1986
· The Sjölin Award in 2002 for outstanding contribution to the science of fire safety by the International Forum of Fire Research Directors, NIST
· The 2006 Guise Medal by the National Fire Protection Association
His presentation “Questions on the WTC Investigations” was given twice at the 2007 World Fire Safety Conference; Education Session M21 on June 4 (69 minutes) and Spotlight Session T54 on June 5 (102 minutes). Recordings of the presentations can be purchased from the National Fire Protection Association at http://www.fleetwoodonsite.com/index.php?cPath=...
For a list of over 180 other engineers and architects who question the official investigation into the events of 9/11, please visit http://patriotsquestion911.com
shaolin_Z
More people who don't know what they're talking about...
Great article, however i wouldnt call it a home run for your cause. all of his inconsistencies with the NIST conclusions were on failure mechanisms, not on failure theory. Truss rod failure vs column / girder failure is going to be a hard one to prove either way in the end due to the removal of the steel. both would cause the same result, the "pancake" type failure.
I dont think we are ever going to get a clear picture of what failed first in the structure.
it would be nice to see the model that he and is grad students put together to see how it compares to the MIT model.
shaolin_Z
I'm about to umm... crash in a bit :p... but your input and civility is appreciated colonel :).
colonelcrisp
quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
I'm about to umm... crash in a bit :p... but your input and civility is appreciated colonel :).
i wish i could say the same, but the few days of holidays i have taken in the past week have caused a backlog of 4 billion emails to accumulate on my blackberry and i think ill be at work till at least 7 oclock tonight sorting them all out... who ever invented the CC function on email should be shot, hanged, drawn and quartered and rolled in sea salt.
pkcRAISTLIN
yeah, that article has been posted before. the centrally important part being
quote:
Although Dr. Quintiere was strongly critical of NIST’s conclusions and its investigatory process, he made it clear he was not a supporter of theories that the Twin Towers were brought down by pre-planted explosives. “If you go to World Trade Center One, nine minutes before its collapse, there was a line of smoke that puffed out. This is one of the basis of the ‘conspiracy theories’ that says the smoke puffing out all around the building is due to somebody setting off an explosive charge. Well, I think, more likely, it’s one of the floors falling down.”
quote:
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
More people who don't know what they're talking about...
yeah, this is the list we keep talking about that has a bunch of "names" but no actual licensed engineers. they could be names of anyone as far as we can judge. not particularly convincing if you ask me. also, have they produced any papers that support the controlled demolition theory? if they have id love to read it :)
Magnus
quote:
Originally posted by donnybrasco
Why does this board always have the same topics in 3 different threads at the same time?
That being said, do you really think the U.S. government could put such a mammoth conspiracy together without it ever being found out? One which involve some of it's participants commiting suicide in order to carry it out? One that would mean certain death for those who were found to have been involved in this "Grand Conspiracy"? And just where would they find all these Americans in the various branches of services willing to kill their innocent fellow Americans? And all these people are going to keep this secret? And what for? To have an "excuse" to attack another country and start a war? What about the Iraq war? By most people's take, the U.S. manufactured the whole WMD's argument...so why would the government need to kill thousands of it's own people and destroy so much property, just to start a war, when it would be a LOT easier to just make up an excuse?
DO YOU SEE HOW FREAKIN IDIOTIC THIS SOUNDS!?!?!!?
Well said my thoughts exactly. There is just no way IMO something of this scale could ever be pulled off and remain a secret with so many mouths needing to remain shut for all eternity.
